9 10 1877 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/6d116402780786b6428714292f28be60.jpg 3be41b7114488694668085c3c3b75c9e https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/c3ba030b7ee1f2e3f3b0472c4fc84185.docx 28493d6b231a41ba662938c480d1205b https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/6c168ffbd7bd487879c2cfb56db83cc2.docx 479fd8531a8ff29a9d000690f6cd682b https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/f59077bf6d9102188de79c1fdf488abb.docx 320be36ab3f1e374073ac018bf0c05e5 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/be5624d4ea2f2e9e9e3018845a47f6b8.docx 1ba7a9b7f79f52714ff7c22e571db2e2 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/55c79342e573a2303104f48296e96903.wav a394ddebbed27eedf59ace206741a7b7 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/928f601d4d8c23ad57936d56e4d8a755.wav bb10b1e03fcc3e8294de0c3d33dcb0f0 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/001bb1d91df8e54c066440934de85204.jpg 720df5c8c254219e498bc66cfae11334 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/67970f64073f321489400f232b13484d.mp4 311c3a47047171861ccbd8e8134cab23 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Title A name given to the resource Chris Sloan Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2015 Description An account of the resource Chris Sloan is a dancer and community activist, he helped to found the first Pride Parade in Denver in 1976. He is a drag performer, Christi Layne, whose is internationally known. Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Colorado LGBTQ History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Activism Christi Layne Dancer Drag Pride Parade Salt Lake City https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/b4cac6614ef87234a64feac0461264e9.docx 2b68156f1041a8024c8ae189e6290057 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/f5335f246e65257a516292d603712f4a.MP3 68d5b3a115064dcf7bca5840c663e9ee Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Title A name given to the resource Cole Hart Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2017 Description An account of the resource Cole Hart’s oral history traces her life from Nashville and Texas to military service and Colorado, centered on evangelical Christianity, sexuality, family, education, and identity. She discusses growing up in the Church of the Nazarene, gifted education, family therapy, purity culture, first crushes on women, coming out, Oxford, massage therapy, Catholicism, and spiritual deconstruction. Hart reflects on lesbian community in Nashville, serving in the Army during Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, Arabic language training, Fort Bragg, graphic design, and moving to Colorado. Her story highlights faith, shame, resilience, military life, queer self-discovery, and rebuilding identity beyond religious constraint. Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Colorado LGBTQ History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Global Response Force Linguist Military Tennessee Trans Coming Out Transgender https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/d4ec75b967eaac41f03aa7589332bb69.docx 8fd5d370168d25e4158c0abfa657212a https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/621f9f2d7a0aee4c9f03f02be972c867.MP3 3883bffab88c55946d3642d1bc333222 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/779642b45ff758f5f1b756e25782f5d7.MP3 335e5853f87bc3dab5ee0c6e52e3e57b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Title A name given to the resource Corky Blankenship Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2019 Description An account of the resource Corky Blankenship’s two-part oral history traces his life from southeast Denver and Cherry Creek through Fort Lewis, Greeley, San Francisco, teaching, family business, and Denver gay nightlife. He discusses childhood creativity, paper dolls, early attraction to men, family acceptance, an older gay brother, cruising at Washington Park, the Capitol, and Cheesman Park, and early Denver bars such as the Court Jester. Blankenship reflects on San Francisco’s Polk Street and Castro scenes, returning to Denver to run the family daycare, caregiving, business stress, Tracks, dancing, friendship, and long-term gay community life. His story highlights joy, resilience, sexuality, nightlife, family, and queer Denver memory. Corky Blankenship was a long time community member. In this oral history he speaks about his art, social life, and owning a family childcare business. He grew up in Denver in the 1950s and made his mark by becoming a well known community member later in life. He talks about his experiences knowing Harvey Milk, living through San Francisco in the 1970s, and returning home to Denver through the HIV AIDS crisis. Corky passed in the middle of the COVID-19 Pandemic. Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Colorado LGBTQ History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Artist Childcare Denver 1950s Harvey Milk HIV/AIDS San Francisco 1970s https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/fe54e947a07cac63bcf2ab79b47693ea.docx 68f9e949a1f6c4595625edf5a8d9e1cb https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/65402f396e23f045eb97c7a96fbcbb2b.MP3 b4c179f0cf08ef5505624af178a0686e https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/48dfdd84e12596f66f6dd2054337f6c7.MP3 69842d51aec05447df6bf1436dac1985 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/411f7d58775f2ef3d14abfcb110b0f8d.MP3 9aa3a6297fab300cd5359fa0653080eb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Title A name given to the resource Daniel Dearmin Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2018 Description An account of the resource Daniel Dearmin’s oral history traces his life across North Carolina, Hawaii, Vermont, and Colorado, shaped by family instability, music, poverty, racism, sexuality, and survival. He discusses his Hawaiian mother, Southern Appalachian childhood, bluegrass culture, divorce, sibling separation, domestic violence, early sexual experiences, and the lasting influence of Aunt Rosalie. Dearmin reflects on bisexuality, HIV, caregiving, chosen family, migration, and the complicated overlap of love, harm, beauty, and trauma. His story highlights resilience, cultural mixture, queer sexuality, memory, and the lifelong work of understanding how childhood, family, and survival shaped his identity. Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Colorado LGBTQ History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 California Catholic Costa Mesa Hawaii Healthcare Military North Carolina https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/cd4c0e5d75d5a7ae36741fa6ee7aab9a.docx 4e3452d38622bd46353d99596d50683f https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/924448a8a3677ec805774db3cb9b138e.MP3 982960631503364331766cb7794e90a1 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/515cbbb934cd1eba359f6f273ae2a050.MP3 b9ec0599060a32bfee753bb22960cecf Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Title A name given to the resource Deb Pollock Oral History Description An account of the resource Deb Pollock talks about her work in theater, coming from Northern Colorado, working and living through the HIV/AIDS crisis in San Francisco and becoming the CEO of the Center on Colfax. Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Colorado LGBTQ History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2019 Colorado HIV/AIDS Marriage Project Angel Heart San Francisco The Center on Colfax CEO Women's Theater https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/a9a65487774e751c44e43f84fdcc61ac.docx 750154a017a44f8287d1a0c211ac6f73 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/04101d724c2fd9be4ca8bbb0ac02f5fe.MP3 2f0c13faeeae899afedaa46a7bcef8f6 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/338c990c8f4d476a09ebbc4b583f2304.MP3 ef80991cf219c262846abf14953016fd https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/d6784f4e7b4f8593f1caf4529a7f9de9.MP3 2f2c1f7f656ad533efffa6030e51e1c6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Title A name given to the resource Dee Galloway Oral History Description An account of the resource Dee Galloway’s oral history traces her life from Beatrice, Nebraska, to Five Points and Denver’s lesbian community, centered on race, religion, reading, coming out, and community survival. She discusses childhood asthma, National Jewish, bullying, Baptist church life, early awareness of attraction to women, and finding language through Rubyfruit Jungle and a mentor at Bloomsbury Books. Galloway reflects on Denver school busing, Manual and JFK, the Gay and Lesbian Community Center, Everywoman’s Coming Out Group, Woman to Woman bookstore, Velvet Hammer, Three Sisters, the Broadway, police harassment, marriage, feminism, and Black lesbian identity. She reads her poem "The Slice The Air". Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Colorado LGBTQ History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2019 African American African Spirituals Project Denver Poet Poetry Saint Thomas Episcopal Church University of Denver (DU) https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/5007a649d55befc13cd061693285c668.docx 63b9d3962da602d4b4aab9bc088b6d26 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/42b48fb1cae2d6933e52b02005508b8c.MP3 2b90db376653198aeaeb80fe57a8d53c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Title A name given to the resource Denis Gerdes Oral History Description An account of the resource Denis Gerdes’s oral history traces his life from St. Louis to Colorado Springs and Denver, centered on family responsibility, Catholicism, gender expression, trauma, art, skating, and queer self-understanding. He discusses growing up as a feminine boy in a large military family, feeling responsible for siblings, complicated relationships with parents, early loss, abuse, and the need for safe spaces for LGBTQ youth. Gerdes reflects on figure skating, music, art, Manitou and Catholic schools, Colorado Springs bars, AIDS-era fear, and later self-direction through college. His story highlights resilience, creativity, vulnerability, survival, and the long process of reclaiming agency. Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Colorado LGBTQ History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2017 Colorado Springs Colorado State University HIV/AIDS Ice Skater Pike's Peak Community College https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/55136537e1898171dad39d900a5a5ab4.MP3 a22f46b6a379d5118107a5d143841e7a https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/07d4ed8c59299bd574153636d37a11d4.docx 0444fc5ad732fa9fe362320c069fb44f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2024 Description An account of the resource This is a transcript of this interview. It has not been through an editing process so there may be discrepancies. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cunningham, Meredith https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/a45a2249902cb1cea0a6d1cb510777ad.jpeg 81309f379e04d3e67408dfdaa715e3c9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Title A name given to the resource Don McMaster Oral History Description An account of the resource Don grew up in West Denver in a Catholic household. He became an elementary school teacher. He helped create and run the first men's coming out group at the First Unitarian Society of Denver and the Gay Community Center of Colorado. He is a life long member of the Denver Gay Men's Chorus. Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Colorado LGBTQ History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2015 Catholic Denver Denver Gay Men's Chorus (DGMC) First Unitarian Society of Denver (FUSD) Gay and Lesbian Community Center of Colorado (GLCCC) Gay Community Center Colorado (GCCC) Gay Life in Denver 1960-1970 GLBT Center of Colorado The Center on Colfax https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/c09be4e960d55e504e9c369da0f58a23.jpg a3b179d2f45ee3a87c754505f4865216 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/fbafc5a2a303d919a8600c5ace7c05b5.WMA d680d321d6ca46c9fa4ebb9e399b3b14 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Donaciano Martinez Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2012 to 2020 Subject The topic of the resource Donaciano Martinez Description An account of the resource This oral history is the story of Donaciano Martinez. He talks about his life growing up in Colorado Springs, his lifetime of activist work, and his work in Chicano and Latino spaces. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1950 to 2020 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/5eec4afd4674174898cb0acfd72f3905.WMA 6a9d4ae128edd61bef5ad487c556b22a https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/0a8fad5960d683ad1c8f144eeba07a11.wav 10acdeb7e59309772a18d8424c73532d https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/233ab1ebc0c7c941a2b10ed6b56511df.MP3 87009ed64bf416d5ced535dba091d6fc https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/dce888fa24dac534f89849c19e3a5d89.MP3 f84f331637b3f036b98b84405ad7f738 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/8bff38cd3cf3d8a7b9db2693407bd98c.pdf f589afcc34b214d356d55ee6fb3f80ec PDF Text Text In Memory of Steve Handen by D. Martínez July 13, 2021 “The world has lost a giant, and it will be hard to replace someone like him,” I commented to my friend William Watts who notified me about our mutual friend Steve Handen who died at the age of 81 on July 12, 2021. According to an email announcement by Steve’s daughter, Emmy Handen, he died peacefully at home in Colorado Springs while under hospice care. She pointed out that her dad told many people over the years that “he’s not afraid of death, he just didn’t want it to hurt” — a typical way that Steve expressed himself upon commenting on situations. In reference to Steve’s peaceful passing, Emmy wrote “He got his wish.” Born September 20, 1939, Steve attended the Catholic seminary in Denver and was assigned to a wealthy parish in Denver once he was ordained a priest in the mid 1960s. __________________________________________ Pictured at right is Steve displaying his great grin. __________________________________________ I first met Steve in 1968 in the course of our volunteer work in the anti-poverty program in Colorado Springs when he was still in his mid-20s. Fellow activists and I knew him back then as “Father Handen” because he was the priest for Corpus Christi Catholic Church, which was known in those years for its predominantly upscale parishioners. He wasn’t at that church very long as he had his sights on living among the poor and being an advocate for povertystricken people. Like other Catholic priests and nuns in that era, Steve was inspired by the teachings of Dorothy Day who co-founded the Catholic Worker Movement (CWM) that focused on improving the lives of people in poverty. As someone who grew up in poverty, I always had a vastly different lens on poverty than Steve and other CWM activists. Despite our different life experiences, we were soldiers in the same war that worked against poverty. In addition to our volunteer work in the anti-poverty movement, Steve and I also were part of numerous protests against the U.S. war in Vietnam. Our paths frequently crossed at numerous meetings and events related to our anti-poverty activism, and for a few years we were active with our mutual friend Jan in the more militant welfare-rights project that was a component of the broader antipoverty program. �Based on the review of the timeline in my handwritten diary of my activism in those years, there was an incident when Steve and I were once falsely accused by a few fellow volunteers of keeping for our personal benefit money donated by schools and churches to which he and I did presentations about the anti-poverty program. When I became worried about the “seriousness” of the allegation against us, he calmly told me not to be concerned because we did nothing wrong. Sure enough, just like he predicted, the allegation eventually fizzled. Steve and I were among 20 activists arrested and jailed in Colorado Springs 50 years ago during a peaceful protest in support of the boycott organized by the farmworkers union co-founded by Chicano activist César Chávez and Chicana activist Dolores Huerta. Not wanting to be on a pedestal because of his priest status, he seldom used the “Father” word upon introducing himself to people and instead identified himself simply as “Steve.” Like a few other priests in that era, he eventually left the priesthood in the early 1970s. Around the time I left Colorado Springs and moved to Denver in late 1975, Steve started the Weber House on South Weber Street in Colorado Springs and transitioned to the Bijou House in that city circa 1980. Fashioned after other CWM entities in other parts of the U.S., the Weber House and Bijou House had an open-door welcome approach to poor people who needed a meal or a place to stay. Broadening the commitment to housing for the poor, circa 1980 Steve founded the nonprofit Ithaca Land Trust that still exists to this day and currently is in a legal fight to keep its properties from being gobbled up by a profit entity. When once asked in an interview why he and fellow anti-poverty activists never used CWM (Catholic Worker Movement) as the name of their various housing projects in Colorado Springs, Steve took a deep sigh and wryly noted, “Not all of us are working and not all of us are Catholics.” Steve and I always managed to keep in touch long after I moved to Denver. He always praised my periodic articles about historical events related to my activism from the mid-1960s through the present. Time and time again, he dubbed me “historian extraordinaire” upon reading my writings about my activism over the past 57 years. He always said that my historical writings prompted him to fondly recall his own experiences in the situations and time periods described in my writings. Among many fond stories about Steve, my favorite is the time he encountered a man yelling loudly and pounding his fist on the table at one of the many free �meals served by Steve and fellow volunteers. Always good with his longtime skill of disarming unruly individuals, Steve approached the boisterous man and calmly asked, “What’s your name?” Still in a state of uncontrolled rage, the man replied, “My name is F**k You.” With his warm demeanor, Steve calmly said, “Nice to meet you, Mr. You. I’m Steve” upon extending a handshake to the man. Steve’s cremated remains will be brought to Sacred Heart Catholic Church on Friday, July 23, 2021. There will be a mass at 10:00 a.m. at the church, which is located at 2030 West Colorado Avenue in Colorado Springs. After the mass is completed, friends and loved ones will gather in the church’s nearby gym from 11:00 a.m. to 1:00 p.m. to share memories of the beloved Steve. Due to COVID, food and drinks will not be provided to the attendees. It is okay for each person to bring a water bottle. ++++++++++++++++++ � https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/c5bd87798f34bae22dda387ff028c6be.pdf efc8b1621d33ea2434856308fe869ead PDF Text Text Page 1 Interview October 21, 2019. Western History Department, Denver Public Library Narrator = Donaciano Martinez. Interviewer = David Duffield DD: All right, tonight is October 21, 2019. My name is David Duffield. I am interviewing Donaciano Martinez as part of his oral history series. This is the third in his series. Donaciano, thank you for agreeing to do this third part. Tonight we’re going to begin with the mid to late ‘80s, and we’re going to talk a lot about activism and what you were involved in. So, where do you want to begin? DM: Oh, I’d like to begin by talking about the— [Brief interruption when Duffield double-checked the audio volume] -- begin by talking about the era from 1987 to ’91 beginning with the English-only campaign. I was directly involved in that in 1988, but it -- actually the campaign started like a year before in ’87 when it was disclosed that the right-wing Republicans in this state wanted to push this matter through the legislature. And Governor [Roy] Romer at the time said he would veto that if they tried to push a legislative matter involving English only, he would veto it. So they said okay, we’ll go around you, we’ll start a ballot initiative. And they did. They got all the necessary signatures to get this rolling. And those of us who were opposed to the English-only campaign, one of the strategies was to derail it with a lawsuit because it violated the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo which settled the U.S.--Mexican War of 1848. And part of that treaty was that Mexican Americans in this country, we were guaranteed full civil rights – the first group to ever be guaranteed full civil rights. And part of that was to retain our language. DD: Right. DM: And so, that was part of how the English-only campaign was going to be targeted in a lawsuit was the legal issue of the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo and also the Voting Rights Act – the federal Voting Rights Act. So that lawsuit got started, and Rita Montero – a very fiery straight Chicana activist – was the sole plaintiff. There were a whole bunch of lawyers on the team to challenge this English-only through the courts, but she was like the main plaintiff. And she will tie into when we get into another campaign I was involved in 15 years later, but in the ’88 campaign she was involved with the lawsuit piece. And then about two months before the election in November 1988, the federal Judge involved in the case issued an injunction saying you cannot put this on the ballot. He agreed with the legal team – you cannot put this on the ballot. Because we knew all along that if this was put on the ballot statewide, it would pass. I mean the voters would just come out of the woodwork. It was a very hate-filled campaign, just riddled with hatred. DD: And racism. DM: Racism, waves and waves of it. And so, the Judge – Carrigan – he said you can’t put this on the ballot. Well, the next day after the Judge issued the ruling in September 1988, the Secretary of State Natalie Meyers she holds a press conference saying we are going to put this on the ballot. DD: So she violated the injunction? �Page 2 DM: Yeah, she’s thumbing her nose at the federal Judge. DD: Oh, wow. DM: So anyway, she went ahead and approved it, you know, getting it ready because the election was coming up two months later November ’88. And so, anyway, the campaign continued. There were different factions, like some factions wanted to just do TV ads and speak at classes and churches, and so on. And so, the lawyers had to go back to the federal Judge and say, look, the Secretary of State is saying this is moving forward full-steam. And the Judge says, well, because it’s an election issue now I’m going to refer this matter back to the State courts. So anyway, it just got caught up in this incredible legal mess. And then they went ahead and had the election, and of course it passed overwhelmingly. Everybody came out of the woodwork, you know, “Ah, I don’t want people talking Spanish in this state, by God, this is America” – you know, the whole shebang. DD: And Colorado, as they say, is a Spanish word. DM: Yeah, never mind that Colorado is a Spanish word, okay. And so, during that campaign it was very interesting because some of the gays and lesbians that we would approach were saying, “I don’t get it. How is this a gay and lesbian issue?” You know, and so we’d try to tell them this is a human rights issue and that this issue of racism is tied into how people also hate gays and lesbians. You know, there’s a link. And, of course, Chicanos and Chicanas who were gay and lesbian – everybody got it and they understood. But trying to get this across to nonChicano, non-Chicana gays and lesbians— DD: To white gays and lesbians. DM: It was like, oh my God, you know. And so, it was just another example kind of tied into the theme of the last interview where you said, “Give me some examples.” DD: Okay. DM: “Give me some examples where gays and lesbians don’t get your issues.” DD: Okay. DM: This was a clear example of this, you know. DD: So may I ask a question? Why -- I mean I understand maybe from a different perspective, but why didn’t they get it if you could imagine? DM: That’s very interesting. It’s probably tied into where they come from, you know. They were not raised in a community where there was discrimination based on race and language, and so on. So that’s the only thing I could offer for that— DD: Okay. DM: As to why they didn’t get it, even though we’d say, “Look, the people who are behind this campaign – just waves of hatred – they’re also the type of people who hate gays and lesbians as well.” �Page 3 DD: Right. DM: You know, and little did we know that there would be another campaign coming up four years later that would illustrate the point. DD: Okay. DM: Because these people were from Colorado Springs – the proponents of English only were from Colorado Springs. And they were right-wing Republicans and just wanted to go full-steam, and they were also tied into a national effort to get English declared as the official language of this country. And these efforts were going on all over the nation, state by state. DD: Yes. DM: So anyway. Anyway around that time— DD: May I ask one follow-up question? DM: Mm – mm – mm. DD: Never mind, I’ll ask it later. DM: Yes. Yes, yes, I’m saying. DD: Were you able to get some of them to see? Or no? DM: Yes, but it was tough. DD: It was tough. DM: It was tough. DD: Okay. DM: It was a hard sell because they would say, “Well shouldn’t people just talk English? Why do people have to talk Spanish? Why do you have to have bilingual programs?” DD: Right. DM: Oh, my gosh, it was just – you just wanted to go crazy, it was like pulling teeth, you know. DD: Right. DM: Because at that point a lot of these gays and lesbians who didn’t get it weren’t being targeted -- yet. DD: Right. Do you believe they were afraid of rocking the boat? Or they just were apathetic? DM: Pretty much apathetic. DD: Okay. �Page 4 DM: Yeah, because it wasn’t a specific gay and lesbian issue. DD: Right. DM: But it was a human rights issue. DD: Right. DM: And they didn’t get it. DD: Okay. DM: And so, it was just very frustrating for those of us who – like why we founded Ambiente Latino, Las Mujeres Alegres – because we’ve been through these conversations before where you don’t get some of the issues that are of concern to us. DD: So there was a lack of, there was just general ignorance about racism in the white gay and lesbian community. DM: Yes. DD: Okay. And I say that as a white gay male. DM: Yeah, and it was an extension of everything that had been going on here in the ‘70s with discrimination at the bars, and so on, or trying to raise issues of racism. Well, people would get defensive, “Why do we have to talk about that? What does that have to do with being gay?” So here we had this clear example of it. And then when the election was held and the lawsuit was still going on, but it didn’t get resolved until after the election. They tried to take it all the way to the Colorado Supreme Court, the U.S. Supreme Court, and in both situations they didn’t take the case. DD: So they deferred it. DM: Uh-huh. So the election results were— DD: Allowed to stand. DM: Yeah. And the Governor – Romer – who had threatened to veto this if this went through the legislature, right away after the election he said, “You know what, in this State government we are going to continue to have everything bilingual” – you know, forms and ballot issues. Mayor Webb – I don’t think he was [mayor yet]. Oh, Mayor [Federico] Peña said the same thing – we’re going to continue, we don’t care if this is the State law, we’re going to continue to do everything bilingual. DD: Okay. So that kind of ignored the ridiculous racist law. DM: Yeah. So anyway, right around that time there were people here in the gay and lesbian community who were starting a group called the Equal Protection Ordinance Coalition. DD: Right. �Page 5 DM: And I want to say that this was right around 1988 or ’89 – more probably ’88 during the English-only campaign. And my recollection that it was started and co-founded by Carol Hunt. She was in Mayor Peña’s administration. She was an open lesbian and she was one of the cofounders of the Equal Protection Ordinance Coalition known as EPOC. DD: Right. DM: And then Tea Schook was a co-founder. DD: Right. DM: And then Tea had a lover at that time, it was not Tina. DD: No. DM: And I don’t know that woman’s name, but that was— DD: It was before Tina probably. They met during that. But Tony Ogden was also a— DM: Tony Ogden was a co-founder. And there was a blonde gay guy whose name I cannot remember. And then there was Arthur Powers. DD: And Arthur, right. DM: So, those were the co-founders of EPOC and they wanted to explore getting gays and lesbians protected by the [Denver] city ordinance, the civil rights ordinance. DD: Right. DM: And I’m not sure at what point Tina Scardina got involved with it – this. She might have been one of the co-founders of EPOC, but I don’t know. I know she was like very close— DD: She was there. DM: In that time frame, but I just remember she was not Tea’s lover. Tea’s then-lover was also a co-founder. DD: Right. DM: So then once they found out was that Denver did not even have an ordinance protecting anybody, so EPOC started doing all the necessary work with City Council like how do we put together an ordinance for everybody based on race, gender, sexual orientation – the whole, all of the usual isms. DD: The usual cleavages in society based on race, class and gender. DM: Yes, exactly. And so, they started working on all of that. And then one of the people that they were working with was Judy Gold. I don’t know if that name has come up in your interviews. Judy Gold was an aide to one of the City Council representatives, and I think she �Page 6 was the aide to Cathy Reynolds. It’s my recollection. But whatever representative she was working with, Judy Gold became very active in helping— [Brief interruption when a security officer opened the door and apologized to Martinez and Duffield for the interruption.] -- helping EPOC put together this ordinance. It would be a civil rights ordinance protecting everybody. And when we get going I’ll talk more about Judy Gold’s involvement with the Amendment 2 campaign as well, but she was very instrumental in helping Tea and all of them put this together because she was directly involved with City Council. So, fast forward just a little bit to October 15, 1990, here in Denver was the City Council hearing to approve or disapprove of this proposed ordinance – the civil rights ordinance. And I remember standing in line and it was like packed with people who had shown up. I mean EPOC did a great job getting the word out in the community – we need people down there, we need bodies down there, you know. And so, I was standing in line. I was talking to Carol Lease – she was the former director of the Gay and Lesbian Community Center here in Denver. And we were talking and she had to leave for a minute and says, “Hold my place in line.” And I said, “Okay I will, don’t worry.” But while she was gone, they started moving the line in and we all got to get seated. You have to be seated and I can’t wait for her to come back. And I said okay, so I found this spot in the City Council chambers where I would be like inconspicuous. DD: Okay. DM: I wanted to keep a real low profile that night. And the place was packed, you know, like standing-room only and the people out in the hall who couldn’t get in. And then the City Council President was Cathy Reynolds, and I believe her aide is Judy Gold. But Tea and them can clarify, but Cathy Reynolds was definitely the president that night. And so, they got going and then talking about the pros and cons because they had already worked -- EPOC had already worked behind the scenes with the different City Council people to get them to vote for this ordinance. DD: So they had already lobbied and secured the support they needed from City Council. DM: Yeah. DD: Okay, so this was more formal. DM: Yeah, this was more a formality – we’re just going to go through this and we already know who’s going to oppose it, and so on and so forth. Well, right in the middle of the City Council hearing, this man who had been sitting next to me – I just didn’t get a good vibe from him the minute he sat down. There was just like something is not right about this guy, you know, but I just didn’t talk to him or anything. Well, right in the middle of the City Council hearing, he stands up and he starts disrupting the hearing. DD: Right. DM: And talking on and on about the gays and lesbians are going to go to hell and, you know, this is an abomination. You know, the usual stuff. And so, Cathy Reynolds who’s the President, she says, “Sir, you need to quiet down, you are disrupting this hearing.” [The man replied] “Don’t you worry about me, you know, this man right next to me, he tried to put the make on me.” He pointed at me. Ah – I was so embarrassed, child. I was so embarrassed because I wanted to be �Page 7 in a low-key position inconspicuous at this hearing. And, uh, so then she said, “If you keep it up, I’m going to have you arrested” because there were police there and sheriffs. And he said, “I’m telling you, these gay men they go all over Capitol Hill [neighborhood district] and they try to put the make on everybody.” Just all these wild stories and he said, “And this man” – he kept pointing at me – “has always put the make on me.” DD: Always? DM: Always. DD: And you just met the guy? DM: I’ve never seen the guy until that night. DD: That’s so crazy. DM: Oh my God. And the whole room, child, was just looking and everyone’s turning around. And people who knew me were like, “Oh, you’ve been putting the make on this straight man,” you know. [Prolonged laughter by Duffield] DM: Oh, my goodness, it was quite an ordeal. DD: Oh my God. You didn’t, though? You’d never met him before? DM: I’d never seen this idiot before. DD: Oh my God, how embarrassing. DM: It was. And he wouldn’t let up. He wouldn’t sit down. So, finally Cathy Reynolds says – told the police and the sheriffs to come and get him. She said, “Sir, I’ve given you several warnings, you can’t be doing this, you cannot be disrupting this hearing.” And she said, “I’m going to have you arrested.” [The man replied] “Go ahead, go ahead, have me arrested, I don’t care because you’re all going to hell, this is against God’s law” blah blah blah. DD: Oh, wow. DM: Oh, it was terrible, absolutely terrible. DD: Do you laugh about that now? DM: Oh, yeah. [Laughter by Duffield] DM: I laughed about it at the time, you know – not when he was there, but later. And so, they [police] had to crawl into the aisle. He would not come out to the police. DD: Oh my God. �Page 8 DM: They had to crawl over all these people who were there – and they had to crawl all over me to get to him. He was not going to go. DD: Wow. DM: They kept saying, “Sir, why don’t you just come down to the end of the aisle.” [The man replied] “No, you come and get me.” Oh, my goodness, David, it was something else. And to this day, that situation just stands out like a sore thumb to me, you know. And so, they came and they dragged him out and hauled him out. He’s yelling the whole way. And meanwhile, Cathy Reynolds is sitting up there and she’s winking at me like this [facial expression of several winks] and she’s touching up her lipstick, you know, waiting for all this – [laughter by Martinez] – the police to finish doing the arrest. And she’s winking at me and I was like smiling back at her, you know, like I don’t know what to think – shrugging my shoulders like I don’t know what to think of this situation. And so, anyway he left and the police left and we got back on with the hearing. DD: Okay. DM: And she stated right after they left, she said, “I’ve been on City Council for 20 years and this is the first time I have ever had to have someone arrested at a City Council hearing.” So evidently she had been on the City Council since 1970. DD: About [that far back]. Yeah. DM: I did not know that because, to me, she looked young. But, anyway, it was quite an ordeal. And then Tony Ogden from EPOC – after we got on with the hearing, after the hearing proceeded, because Cathy Reyholds said “I don’t want anybody to make any applause, no noises” – no nothing. We just want to have a calm meeting from now on, after what had just occurred. So Tony Ogden stood up and talked about the importance of this ordinance, and then he asked everybody in the room who’s in favor of it to stand up but not applaud – just stand up to show your support – and like almost the whole room stood up. DD: Wow. DM: It was very impressive. And nobody “yay, yay” screaming and yelling in favor of it, but it was just a nice gesture to have everybody stand up and say yes we support this ordinance. DD: It’s an interesting metaphor, quiet solidarity. That, I think, is what the practice is called. But there’s also the silent in solidarity – which is what people under the English-only stuff were showing – the quietude of that. Anyway, I think that’s interesting. DM: Yeah. DD: So what happened next? DM: And so, the City Council got to the point in the hearing where they voted and it was passed. And, again, nobody yelled and clapped and screamed or anything because Cathy Reynolds said, “I want everybody to be quiet, we’ve already had enough of a scene here tonight” – enough to last her another 20 years. [Laughter by Duffield and Martinez] �Page 9 And so, anyway, the homophobes were testifying at the hearing that night. I forgot to mention that. And one of them was Dr. Richard Heckmann: H-e-c-k-m-a-n-n, two n’s on the end. And of course he got up and talked about, oh, they’re going to be giving special rights to people – the usual stuff, the usual anti-gay anti-lesbian stuff. And he said that the city will be sorry for doing this, you know. And then, much to my disappointment, there were a few average Jose average Josefina getting up to speak against the ordinance because it included gays and lesbians. DD: You mean Latino people? DM: Uh-huh. DD: Oh, wow. DM: Yeah, Chicano people. A few of them got up to talk. And I thought, oh my goodness, I didn’t even know who they were. But they were going on and on about how this is against their religion and against God and you can’t have an ordinance that protects gays and lesbians – very similar to what Dr. Richard Heckmann was stating. We didn’t know that they had an organization in mind yet at that point. DD: Right. DM: And so, anyway, so there it wasn’t like 100 percent people speaking in favor of the ordinance. Most people did speak in favor, but there was that element of anti-gay people who were there that night. And there was one City Council representative, I think his name was Paul Swalm: S-w-a-l-m. I’m sure his name is in the records, and he was definitely against it. And I don’t recall how or what the vote was, but it was overwhelming City Council approved the ordinance and Mayor [Federico] Peña signed it into law like the next day. DD: Okay. DM: It was a done deal. And this was all because of the good work that EPOC had done to get this, you know, brought about over like a year or two period – working with Judy Gold and City Council, lobbying them one on one to secure the votes to make this a reality, you know. So everybody thought, oh, this is great, this is really great to have this, you know. And those of us who had been involved in the English-only campaign, we thought oh after that mess, this is a— DD: A done deal. DM: This is a done deal, and this is good news. Well, right away, not too long after Mayor Peña – the ink wasn’t even dry with his signature to execute that this ordinance would be the law – there was a group called Citizens for Sensible Rights were formed: CSR. And Dr. Richard Heckmann – who had spoken at the October 15th hearing against the ordinance – was the henchman behind this organization. And so, they announced that they were going to repeal that part of the ordinance that was protecting gays and lesbians. They weren’t quite sure yet how they were going to do it – through a lawsuit or a ballot initiative. They weren’t quite sure right away. DD: Right. �Page 10 DM: So like this is in the winter, you know. I thought, oh my God. And so, anyway, by January [1991] it was pretty well known what they were going to do. They were going to have this— DD: Repeal effort. DM: Yeah, a repeal. And I think they called it Initiated Ordinance— DD: Ordinance 1. DM: 1, yeah. DD: Because it was the very first ordinance of that next year. DM: Ah, is that how it worked? DD: I believe so. DM: Okay. And so— [Martinez hands one-page document to Duffield] You can keep that, David. DD: Oh, wow, so you’re handing me a flyer— DM: Exhibit. DD: Exhibit DM: Exhibit. [Laughter] DD: You call this, it’s titled “From the 1991 campaign.” [Reading from the flyer] Somebody wants to erase civil rights of Denver’s citizens and divide our city with a hate campaign. Erasing rights is wrong. Vote no on Measure 1. DM: Yep. DD: So this is the -- [Continuing to read from the flyer] To help fight the hate campaign, call EPOC 839-5540. DM: Uh-huh. DD: Perfect. Thank you. DM: [Handing another one-page document to Duffield] And this is another one about the election results, which I’ll talk about— DD: In a few minutes. DM: In a few minutes -- how we got to the election results. But you can keep both of those. DD: Thank you. �Page 11 DM: So, right away EPOC says when we found out they [CSR] were going to put this on the ballot to repeal two words in the ordinance – sexual orientation – repeal it. So EPOC said okay we thought we were done, we could all rest for a while. DD: So they were only going to repeal sexual orientation from that ordinance. DM: Yeah, two words. Yep, that’s all they wanted to— DD: Not gender? DM: No, just sexual orientation. DD: Okay. DM: So then I got involved with the EPOC campaign as a volunteer and did just a variety of things – knocking on doors, going to the bars, you know talking this up with people on the street, and so on and so forth, trying to get people registered to vote to defeat this initiated ordinance. Was it called an initiated ordinance? [Referring to his notes] Yeah, Initiated Ordinance 1. DD: Ordinance 1. DM: Yeah. But it was a real uphill battle. All of the anti-gay people came out of the woodwork. DD: Yeah. DM: It was just hate-filled. Just like in the English-only campaign, all of the anti-Mexicans came out of the woodwork. Here’s another example of where it was happening, but now they were targeting gays and lesbians. And on one level it was kind of good because some of the same people who didn’t understand the English-only campaign as a hate campaign were now starting to grasp -- oh yeah, there are people in this world who do hate and they want to put this on the ballot, they want to make this public policy, you know. DD: Right. DM: So anyway, we had a lot of meetings and it was like touch and go. And Judy Harrington was hired as the campaign manager for the EPOC campaign opposing this ordinance. DD: Right. DM: She did an excellent job running that campaign, and we had all these different meetings at the community center -- still called the Gay and Lesbian Community Center at that point. DD: Right. DM: And we were having all the meetings there and then sometimes at Tea and Tina’s house because by then Tea and Tina were a couple. DD: Right. Backyard parties. DM: Yeah, and we would have meetings at their house. And then Tony Ogden – I can’t remember his partner’s name – James. Sometimes we would have meetings at their house as �Page 12 well. So anyway, leading up to the campaign there was a lot of apprehension on the part of gays and lesbians in the bars that we went to. They’d say, “Oh, that thing, we’re not even going to worry about that – don’t worry about it because Denver City Council already approved the ordinance.” DD: Right. DM: And so, there was some level of apathy, but people were starting to open their eyes like, hey, they really are targeting us, you know. DD: Right. DM: And so on, but we still weren’t getting the numbers in terms of getting like a lot of people from the gay and lesbian community to get involved in this. There were quite a few, but you’d think with a campaign like this they would have just [said] okay, what can I do – lick an envelope, donate some money, what can I do? DD: You would have thought they would be more involved? DM: Yeah, you would have thought there would have been more involvement. But it wasn’t forthcoming for whatever reason. So I remember we had like different tasks, like some of us were going to be poll watchers. I had never been a poll watcher in my entire life – not even for the English-only campaign. DD: Right. DM: And so, a poll watcher basically goes to the poll and you find out who has voted. It was weird for me to have access to that information. Like the voters in that particular precinct, the [election] judges would give me a list – these are the people who haven’t [voted]. I said, really? And then I’d have to call the EPOC office and say these are the voters [who hadn’t gone to the polls yet] and they had a phone bank and they would call those people – get out to the polls, you know. DD: Oh, wow. DM: But it was so strange. I’d never been a poll watcher in my entire life. And then also we’d go to different precincts with what they call a palm card. It’s like a three-by-five card, sits in your palm, and you had to be so many feet back from the polling place per city ordinance or State law. DD: Right. DM: You couldn’t campaign right at the front door. And so, we would give people coming in to vote, getting out of their cars, and so on – give them that palm card and say – we’d be very polite asking them to vote against this ordinance, vote no, and please stand up for justice. That kind of thing – very brief encounter with the voters, you know. And for someone like me who had an activist period in the ‘60s and ‘70s where I was anti-establishment, anti, you know, government, it was very strange being involved in this particular campaign because I was getting more and more into like the polling and the palm cards and, you know, getting voter records of people who hadn’t voted. The whole thing was like very strange. I mean in 1964 when we were involved in [President] Lyndon Johnson’s campaign, we were basically just �Page 13 knocking on doors. We weren’t doing any of this kind of stuff, you know. So anyway, it was a good – very good – experience for me to be an EPOC volunteer with this campaign. And, then, we won. DD: Yeah. And it says if I can read here [referring to the one-page document provided by Martinez]. I can read – mostly. So it says of the votes cast, there were 232,000 votes in – this is May of 1991 it says – against repeal and then there were 121,000 for. So, percentage-wise, the difference was pretty staggering. There were 54 percent who opposed removing sexual orientation from the anti-discrimination ordinance and close to 96,000 or 97,000 voters in Denver that were opposed to removing sexual orientation from the civil-rights ordinance. And that was according to you, later on, the first time in American history that a city had upheld a sexual orientation— DM: That’s my understanding, it was the first time. DD: So, how did you feel? DM: Well, it was very good to know that our efforts had paid off. However, what was that percent that were in favor of it? DD: 45 percent, so that’s 121,000. DM: Yeah, that’s a lot of people in this Denver county who still think you should not protect gays and lesbians. That was disconcerting to me at the time. DD: Well, to put it in context, 121,000 people out of that it was probably about a 50 percent voter turnout, right? I think Census records in 1990 showed Denver had half a million people, maybe a little less because of the decline in the ‘80s. But that shows that it was a very high percentage of a voter turnout for a particular issue. Now 1990 and 1991 were not low years, but that is a lot of people. That is about a quarter of the population of Denver County that specifically didn’t believe sexual orientation. Now we can talk about the nuances of the argument, but it seems like it was very clear-cut you’re either for or against. In a city that you think is progressive or even at that time this is on the tail-end of the Reagan Administration and into the Bush Administration. This is at the high watermark, so to speak, of the evangelical Christian movement. And then what happened next is even more staggering, but we’ll talk about that in a few minutes. 121,000 people, it’s like today if we had those numbers in Denver County, that might even still be more staggering, you know. It would be antithetical to think that someone would discriminate against – even people a generation later because this was 25 years ago to almost 30 years ago – you would think that would not be possible today. DM: Right. DD: But you never know. DM: Yep. DD: Okay. DM: Yep. DD: So, how did you feel then? �Page 14 DM: Well, I just – we were so tired. I mean it had been a long campaign all those months, you know, a daily thing – licking the envelopes, making the phone calls, going out in the community, passing out flyers, you know, and so on. It had been a long campaign, you know, and much more tiring than my involvement in the English-only campaign for some reason. This was very intense. DD: Were you more active in this campaign? DM: Yeah. DD: Okay. Well, that’s possibly the reason. DM: Yeah. And in all aspects of it – like I say, clear up to going to the polls and getting [voter] lists. I said I can’t believe they’re handing me these lists of people who are registered and this column shows they haven’t voted yet. DD: Did you ever come across anybody who said no, absolutely I’m not supporting you? DM: Uh, there were like a few at shopping centers – like maybe even at the Queen Soopers shopping center, which is like the center of— DD: The gay community. DM: And it was kind of surprising to have people say, “No, I’m not, I’m voting for that ordinance.” DD: Really? DM: Yeah. And I was like – really? DD: And did they tell you why? DM: No, they just like dismissed it and just walk on into the store. DD: Oh, okay. DM: That kind of thing. And then we’d go down on the mall, we were just going all over the place, you know. So there was a lot of work almost on a daily basis for this campaign – all the meetings and everything. But I wouldn’t trade it for anything. It was a real good experience – real good experience. And right around that time – well, after the election – all of the volunteers we were so tired. Judy Harrington the campaign manager, she was very tired. And, uh, so Phil Nash and Bob Janowski offered to have all of us come up to their cabin— DD: Oh, in the mountains. DM: In the mountains. DD: How nice. �Page 15 DM: Like the election was on May 21st, 1991, and on June 2nd – like almost a week after the election – they said you all need to come up and just decompress. [Laughter by Duffield] Come up to the mountains, come to our cabin. DD: Have fun. DM: Oh, and we had a good time up there. And I don’t remember who drove me up there, but after we were leaving their cabin it was one of the EPOC volunteers -- we left their cabin in the mountains after having a nice afternoon up there. And they made the wrong turn, and pretty soon we were just going down these roads and nothing was making sense that we were coming back to Denver. And it was getting darker and darker – it was oh my God, you know. And then finally we ended up at Buena Vista. DD: Oh my God, you went all the way South. DM: Like to the western part of the state, child. We were trying to get back to Denver, and – but it was. And when I told everybody later – the EPOC people – I said can you believe we got lost. You know it was just one of those things that they just took a wrong turn and pretty soon we were going down this way, and there was nobody to ask. We weren’t running into anybody to stop and say, hey, how do we get back to Denver? But we got all the way to Buena Vista, so got back to Denver real late at night. And so, that was the beginning of June and then the official thank-you was going to occur at the end of July [1991] and that was going to be held in the backyard of Joe Barrows: B-a-r-r-o-w-s. I don’t know if you’ve come across— DD: He was a board member, right? DM: He was— DD: Maybe later. DM: Yeah, he was -- I didn’t really see him a lot at the meetings, so I’m not sure what role he was playing with the EPOC. I never saw him until that night at his house. He has a really nice house – like a mansion almost – on the edge of Cheesman Park. DD: Oh, wow. DM: Beautiful backyard and the mansion was just beautiful. So that’s where we had the official— DD: Thank-you [event]. DM: Thank-you [event], it was the end of July. And we were all just having a good old time, you know, and then somebody said, “I got an announcement.” And we thought, oh my god, now what? And they said, “We have gotten word that some group – including Richard, Dr. Richard Heckmann.” Because we thought we were through with these people, and we got word that some group was going to take this [anti-gay measure] statewide and not just going to bother with Denver. They were going to take it statewide, uh, to remove protections for gays and lesbians. And it was like this collective sigh like, oh my God, everybody bowed their heads like are you serious? We’ve just been through this [anti-gay campaign] all these months fighting them. We thought we’d sent them back under the rock where they came from, and now it had �Page 16 just been announced that day that – I don’t know why, if it was a coincidence or they found out we were having our celebration that night. But it really pooped the party— [Laughter by Duffield] DM: To say the least. DD: Yes. DM: And the thought of taking this statewide, right away I said if they take this statewide they’re going to win for the same reasons like with the English-only campaign – you take this kind of hot-button issue statewide and they’re going to win. DD: Yeah. DM: You know, so everybody was like dreading it – like oh my God, now we got to fight a campaign statewide. DD: Yes. DM: And so, anyway that was the end of July. I think it was like July 31st [1991]. And the group that announced was called the Colorado for Family Values – CFV – and that was co-founded by Will Perkins and Tony Marco and Kevin— DD: Tebedo. DM: Tebedo, yeah. They were Italians. DD: Car -- yeah, they owned -- there’s an interesting story, but that’s for another time. They owned car dealerships. DM: Yeah, Will Perkins did. DD: Yeah. DM: He had been down there even before I came to Denver [1975], and he owned all those little car places – the Perkins Plymouth, Buicks, and all that. DD: You were from Colorado Springs, though. DM: Yeah. DD: They were not – some of them. DM: Will Perkins was. DD: Were they? DM: Yeah. DD: Did that surprise you? �Page 17 DM: No. DD: Why not? DM: Because of the long history of racism in that city and the long history of anti-gay mentality in that city. DD: Had it been there when you were a kid -- the anti-gay mentality? DM: Yeah, oh yeah, it was alive and well. DD: Why’s that? DM: I discussed all that in our first interview. DD: Previous interview. A digression, sorry. DM: And I do digress. [Laughter by Duffield and Martinez] And so, anyway, Judy Harrington said, “Okay, now that CFV is going to move forward and try to put this on the ballot for the following year, we need to get rolling on this soon.” And so, she suggested that we put together a state steering committee – and, uh, not just made up of people from Denver, but people from throughout the state because it was going to be a statewide issue. And so, through her connections, she got people from Fort Collins, Aspen, Colorado Springs, Durango, Grand Junction. I mean she had people that she’d contact to help serve on the state steering committee. And then she asked for four people from Denver if any of us were interested, so I raised my hand. And then Joseph Marchione – he’d been involved with this first [Denver] campaign – he raised his hand. Have you met him yet? Have you come across his name? DD: Unh-unh. [meaning no] DM: Okay. So Joseph raised his hand, I raised my hand. Judy Gold [aide] from the City Council, she raised her hand. And then Martha Ertman, she raised her hand. So there would be two women, two men from Denver. And then there would be Christopher from Boulder – I can’t remember his last name right now. So she [Judy Harrington] had these people from all over the state to be on this steering committee – like 12 people on the state steering committee. So we had our first meeting in September 1991, and that meeting was basically just to talk about what we were facing, what was going to be happening with this statewide campaign that the CFV was moving forward with. And then we kind of got to know some of the people outside of Denver that were going to be on the committee. So it was kind of nothing major went on at that first meeting, you know. And then there were a lot of other people in the room – just like onlookers. They could attend the meeting, but they couldn’t vote, you know. And so, anyway we decided not to take too much action at that first meeting in September 1991 – just kind of getting to know each other and talking about what kind of activist background we all had, what did we bring to the table, that kind of stuff. And, uh, one of the people on that committee – I think it was the one from Fort Collins – when I had talked about my involvement with the English-only campaign, they said, “Boy that thing was really a hot issue up there in Fort Collins and Greeley.” You know, �Page 18 I said oh I remember how it was a hot-button issue throughout the state. But they said it was really heavy up there, and I said well it doesn’t surprise me, you know. But anyway, so we decided to meet in October 1991 – it would be our next meeting and that one would be held in Durango. The [Durango] representative on the committee said, “Let’s not just have it all in Denver all the time, let’s come down to our part of the state and see what’s going on down there.” So everybody thought, oh, okay that’s fine but how are we all going to get down there? But everybody made it in October, and at that October meeting -- [referring to his handwritten notes] let’s see I’m trying to think if I got this going here. Yeah, at the October meeting there was a representative there on the state steering committee – her name was Robin Miller. Have you come across her now? DD: [shaking head no] DM: Okay. She was a voting member of the committee, and then I remember in the room – again, there was a whole bunch of people around us, onlookers, you know— DD: In Durango? DM: Uh-uh. DD: Okay. DM: And they were allowed to be there, but they couldn’t vote and so on. And so, she announced that the name of the campaign should be -- [referring to his handwritten notes] Colorado Citizens for Fairness -- that’s what our campaign should be called to counter the Colorado for Family Values. So she proposed that we be called Colorado Citizens for Fairness, and some other people offered some different names for our campaign. And I spoke up and I said, “I think we should continue with the EPOC name, just did such wonderful work on this campaign in Denver, we should continue with the EPOC name – but instead of saying Equal Protection Ordinance Coalition, we should call it Equal Protection Only Coalition.” That was my proposal, but still keep the acronym EPOC. Well, when we voted, I was the only one who voted for that. DD: Okay. DM: All the other ones voted for this proposed name, Colorado Citizens for Fairness. And then she also presented a position paper – Robin Miller presented this position paper that she wanted us to take action on. And so, everybody said well we need to table that because she had already provided it ahead of time – this position paper, like a two-page thing about strategies to deal with the Colorado for Family Values and so on. And so, we decided to table it till the November meeting. DD: Okay. DM: And that’s pretty much what happened in October. And I think they brought up in the October meeting, some of the people at the table said, “I’m picking up on some anti-EPOC sentiment at this table.” I didn’t bring it up, but some other people from the different parts of the state said, “I’m picking up on some anti-EPOC sentiment, I’m not sure what’s going on here.” And then I said, “I don’t know why people would have such an anti-attitude about EPOC because they’ve done great work with this [campaign] battling the bigots in Denver” and so on and bringing about the ordinance, and so on and so forth. Well, anyway, something was going �Page 19 on there. I did not know that a lot of this was behind the scenes, you know. But somehow Robin Miller was connected to this. DD: Okay. DM: She definitely did not want EPOC to be the name of the campaign to battle the statewide issue. So in November [1991] we got together, and again the 12 representatives [state steering committee] were at this long table and a room full of people behind us – onlookers. And, uh, to put it politely, things kind of came to a head at that meeting. We – somebody brought up the fact that – I think it was the representative from Fort Collins said that Tony Marco and Will Perkins from the Colorado for Family Values had been up there speaking about their ballot initiative, which was called Amendment 2, and that during their presentation they mentioned that Robin Miller was a friend of theirs. DD: What? DM: Yeah, they specifically mentioned Robin Miller being a friend of theirs and that they had gone to dinner a couple of times. Because Robin Miller was from Colorado Springs, where these bigots were from, but Robin Miller is on our state steering committee. DD: Wow. DM: So they brought this up in November at the [state steering committee] meeting. The representative from Fort Collins brought this up that these guys had been up there talking and they were talking favorably of Robin Miller. And everyone was like – really? – you know. And so, I spoke up and I said, “I am concerned that we have a member on our steering committee who is supposedly a friend of the enemy” – you know, and that they boasted about her up at Fort Collins in a public meeting and that she’s even gone to dinner. And Robin was present at the [November 1991 steering committee] meeting, so I said, “Robin, I have a question for you. Is this true? Have you gone to dinner with these guys and are you a friend?” She said, “Well, you know, I’ve met with them before, but I think it’s good to meet with them to kind of find out what they’re doing.” You know, and she said, “Yeah, I’ve been to dinner with them.” And I said, “I don’t think that’s a good thing” – you know – “especially since you’re involved in this state steering committee for our campaign” and so on and so forth. And then one of the people in the onlookers’ section of the meeting was Arthur Powers. DD: Okay. DM: And he spoke up and he stood up for Robin Miller. He said he thought that she’s a good person and she’s got good intentions and her integrity is being called into question, and so on and so forth. Have you ever met Arthur Powers? DD: Uh, yeah, I’ve met him several times. DM: You have. You’ve interviewed him? DD: Not yet. DM: Okay, because he’s going to have a whole different spin— DD: It’s fine and that’s his perspective. �Page 20 DM: And you can plan to be there till one in the morning because he likes long— DD: It’s fine. DM: Okay. DD: Suffice it to say, let’s get yours. DM: Yeah, so let’s get mine. Mine is usually a little bit briefer than Arthur can be. But, so he spoke up and said that, you know, he felt that we are attacking her and that she’s not to be trusted and so on. And I said, “Well, I’m just very concerned about this” – you know – that she’s now admitted that she’s met with them and gone to lunch or dinner, whatever it is. So anyway, we voted not to accept her position paper. DD: Okay. DM: The committee voted not accept it. And then, Judy Harrington – who was also one of the onlookers, she’s not on the state steering committee, she’s in the audience – and she rose to speak and she said, “I have a problem with the name Colorado Citizens for Fairness.” She said, in her long experience of being in campaigns, any time you have the word “for” in there it triggers a vote— DD: Against— DM: A yes for something. DD: H-m-m, interesting. DM: So she thought the voters would be confused and say let’s vote for this Amendment 2, and so she said, “I have a real problem with that word ‘for’ being in there.” And, uh, so anyway we voted against that name even though it had been approved back in October when I was the only one who voted for EPOC. DD: Okay. DM: So November, we voted to get rid of that name [Colorado Citizens for Fairness], get rid of her [Robin’s] position paper, and then she was kind of being questioned about her links to the Amendment 2 proponents. So, it was ugly, David. I’m just saying all of this in a very nice way. It was a very ugly meeting. There was some shouting going on. And so, Robin Miller and Arthur Powers and some of their people – they stormed out. And I later labeled that meeting – that state steering committee meeting – I labeled it “Bloody Sunday.” It was on a Sunday in Colorado Springs. I just walked away from that meeting feeling really yucky – real yucky, you know. In other words, there was a split among the people who were going to be working against Amendment 2. There was a split that occurred that month. It’s unfortunate, you know, because here you need people to be united and focused on the amendment and defeating it but yet you got all this stuff going on, you know. So EPOC became it’s called the Equal Protection Campaign. DD: Right. So, EPC. �Page 21 DM: Yeah, EPC. That’s what it became. So then the campaign was just in full swing. I continued volunteering for it. But right around that time, I met this Chicano gay man. Again, we’re still talking about 1991. I met this Chicano gay man involved in EPOC. His name was Gary DeHerrera: D-e-H-e-r-r-e-r-a, and a Chicana lesbian named Angela Romero I met. They were both EPOC volunteers, and they had pulled me aside and they said, “What do you think about starting a gay and lesbian Chicano or Latino organization?” And I said, “Well, I’m always up for stuff like that.” And I told them about Ambiente Latino and Las Mujeres Alegres, blah blah blah. And so they said, “Well, let’s just have – let’s set up – a meeting of people in this town and see what kind of interest we could get in working on and against the Amendment 2 campaign” – you know, just from a Chicano perspective approaching other Chicanos and Latinos to work against Amendment 2. And I said okay. Well, Angela and Gary didn’t know any gays and lesbians who were Chicano or Chicana. And I thought oh that’s – I thought to myself that’s interesting. I said, “I know plenty,” and they said okay. So we had our first meeting, and everybody that I knew I invited, you know. And we had our first meeting, and we decided to form La Gente Unida. DD: Ah, okay. DM: So we’re talking like right around parallel that the EPOC campaign is going to take on the bigots statewide, La Gente Unida is forming as its own organization to help lobby Chicanos and other Latinos to vote against this amendment. DD: So, why? Why were they forming the group at that point? Why specifically for Latinos and Chicanos? DM: Uh, because we felt that we might have a better shot at approaching people since we were – we could say, “Hey, we are Chicanos, we are Latinos, and we are also gays and lesbians.” You know, and so on and kind of pitch it like that. DD: You mentioned earlier that the gay and lesbian white people, right, didn’t – weren’t there for English-only, right? DM: Right, a lot of them didn’t get it. DD: There was a schism, and you mentioned also that there were Chicano Latino people at the no-on-1 [ordinance] City Council hearing, right? DM: The straight— DD: Straight. So could this organization – did you see logic in bridging the gap between the two groups? DM: Yeah, we thought we would have a better chance at it. You know, as opposed to nonChicanos and non-Latinos approaching these people in the Chicano community and saying, “Can you please oppose this amendment?” You know, we thought we would have a better standing— DD: An intersectional— DM: Yeah. just because we’re from that heritage. DD: Right. �Page 22 DM: I mean we – like Angela, Gary and I, and the others who started La Gente Unida – we’d all had our own family experiences where it was very anti-gay, very anti-lesbian. DD: Right. DM: But we wanted just to give it a shot, and so we did. We would send out letters to Latino Chicano organizations, you know, stating who we are and then we were encouraging them to vote against Amendment 2 and we’re available to come and speak to their organizations or community meetings and their churches, and so on and so forth. So, uh, that was happening like right around the same time that the [November 1991] split took place in the state steering committee of the campaign against Amendment 2. DD: How many people were involved with La Gente Unida at first? DM: Uh, I would say about 15 to 20. DD: Okay. And was it more a group or formal organization? DM: In the beginning, it was just kind of like socializing with the understanding that we were going to be working against Amendment 2. DD: And so, where did they go and what did they do for how long? So, like what were some of the things you did with La Gente Unida when you were in that first year or two? DM: Oh, it was just like a lot of camaraderie and just kind of getting to know each other because, like I said, Angela and Gary – they were like shocked when I invited all these people and they said, “Oh my God, I didn’t realize there were other Chicano gays and Chicana lesbians.” I mean, that was kind of a foreign concept to me because I had been around them [Chicano gays and Chicana lesbians] forever. DD: Right. DM: I was like kind of taken aback that they didn’t know that many in their own lives, you know, but they were both were very young – Angela and Gary. Uh, and then Gary, he really took the bull by the horns. Like, you know, the more encouragement he got at our different meetings that we had at La Gente Unida, he just felt really uplifted, you know. And he became like a real key leader in the organization, and he wasn’t afraid to go speak. And it was like watching a flower blossom compared to what I knew him in the beginning, you know, because I’m much older than they were. But it was real fascinating to watch. And so, in the beginning our focus was like dealing with Amendment 2. But then we also wanted to incorporate the organization to become an official nonprofit, and so we went through that whole process – you know, similar to what [the gay and lesbian nonprofit] Lambda Services Bureau did 20 years before in Colorado Springs, becoming part of the system. But anyway, so all of this was going on simultaneously and then there was a – in 1993 – no, no, I’m jumping forward too soon. [Reading his handwritten notes] Let’s see. Oh, yeah, so one thing I want to talk about – [Still reading his handwritten notes] I wonder why I put this in April. Yeah, it was April 1991 when we were still dealing with the [Denver] city ordinance here. I was with an EPOC volunteer at a gay bar. We were passing out literature to get people to vote against the Initiated Ordinance number 1, and there was this gay guy – he said to me – he was an EPOC volunteer, he said, “There are Blacks and there are” – and he used the “n” word.” I almost fell off my stool. This is an EPOC volunteer saying this, you �Page 23 know. He wasn’t like a higher-up in the organization, he wasn’t like a Tea Schook or Tony Ogden, but he was – I’d seen him at a lot of the meetings. I said, oh my gosh, and then he says, “There are Mexicans and there are” – and he used the “s” word, the spick word. And I was like speechless, I can’t believe— DD: He said this to your face? DM: Yep, right there when we’re promoting EPOC campaign to get people to vote against this Denver proposed repeal— DD: Ordinance. DM: You know, so and I said, “I can’t believe you’re saying all this.” You know, so then he said, “It’s kind of similar to there are gays and then there are faggots.” I said, “I still don’t get it.” The mindset behind all of that and the hate behind all that. DD: Well, the ignorance at least. DM: Yeah. DD: Was he trying to be funny? DM: No, he was trying to engage me into this because we were in a bar and we had already been told by the bar owner, “Oh, you’re going to find a very liberal crowd in here tonight. You won’t have any problems with getting people to come and vote against this ordinance.” So then he [EPOC volunteer] said, he told me, “What I’m trying to say is that there’s good and bad in all groups.” So, it went from bad to worse. DD: [Laughing] Yeah, no kidding. DM: But this was just an example of the mindset – coming from an EPOC volunteer. And then there was another EPOC volunteer -- on a different occasion -- who said that it was a “drunk Mexican on a donkey” – those were the words he used – who put together these bad roads in the Texas town he was from. DD: Oh, wow. DM: He blamed it on this drunk Mexican on a donkey. And, again, it was coming from an EPOC volunteer – a white male gay man. And I thought, whoof, it was truly disgusting to have this. I even brought it up to Tea [EPOC co-founder] at the time, you know. I said I realize you don’t have control over all the volunteers, but I just want to let you know that this kind of mentality is among the ranks. DD: Right. DM: It’s there, you know, and so on. So, I just think I forgot to bring that up earlier when we were talking about the [Denver] ordinance, but just as an example of the kind of racism that exists in so-called progressive spaces. DD: Right, the internalized. He came from Texas? �Page 24 DM: One of the guys did – the one who made the statement that it was a drunk Mexican on a donkey who he blamed for the bad roads in Texas where he was from. DD: Okay. DM: So, uh. So where were we before I got— DD: So we were talking about La Gente Unida. DM: Yeah, La Gente Unida. DD: And so, La Gente Unida forms and then you incorporated as an organization. And this is around 1991 or early 1992. So, going into that campaign year, what were the sort of things you were doing? DM: In terms of just lobbying Chicano and Latino organizations, sending out letters and speaking – lot of speaking engagements – appearing on radio programs, and so on and so forth. So we were kind of giving like a special voice to the campaign. I don’t know if EPOC – well by then it was called the Equal Protection Campaign – I don’t know if they could have provided that. We don’t know, you know. But Gary and Angela, who had been EPOC volunteers, they just felt like we need to have our own little organization. We’ll work with the [EPOC] campaign, you know, and we’re all working for the same thing to defeat Amendment 2, we’re just going to go down a little bit different path. So anyway, but, uh, somewhere in the middle of the campaign that year ’92 CFV brought up this term called “special rights.” And the minute they introduced that into the campaign, I talked to Judy Harrington. I said, “Judy, this is very serious stuff” because special rights is a hot-button issue that is directly linked to the advent of affirmative action two decades ago. That [affirmative action] got all the white males all riled up, you know, “All the women are getting rights, the minorities are getting rights, they’re getting special rights, we’re being pushed aside because they’re having these affirmative-action programs.” I said that has not died, Judy, special rights has not died -- they [CFV] are a genius to bring that up and connect it to Amendment 2 and use it against gays and lesbians asking special rights. You know, because that mindset has already been in the psyche of the voters for a long time as it relates to affirmative action, which is a real hot-button issue, and now they’re tying that into this. I said you better jump on that, Judy. And Judy had this political approach she said that she’d used in other campaigns before she got involved with this. She said when they put out things like that – like special rights or denounce you for one thing or another – don’t always swing at it, just stay in the batter’s box but don’t always swing at everything that they throw at you, you know. I said I understand that, but this [special rights] is very serious – if they get ahold of that and they go and they run with it and get people all riled up about special rights for gays and lesbians, this is a guaranteed victory at the ballot. DD: Right, because they only have to move that middle percentage. DM: Yeah. DD: It’s the same thing that [President] Nixon used in the silent majority in the 1970s – just that small little middle. DM: Yeah, yeah. But she ignored it. She didn’t address them on that special-rights issue. DD: She didn’t ever do that? �Page 25 DM: Unh-unh. Yeah, didn’t take it on. And it was – that’s not the one thing, that’s not the only thing that— DD: One of a many list of things. DM: One of many, but that was very important, you know, especially when I sat down and talked with her about the history of that term – special rights, affirmative action, been going on for 20 years. DD: And no one ever said, “not special rights, equal rights.” DM: Oh, yeah. She talked about this is about equal rights, but she never really got like targeted them [CFV] with how they were trying to say that gays and lesbians want special rights. DD: So, equal not special, huh? DM: Yeah, she never wanted to go there because that’s such a hot-button issue – special rights, you know. Uh, oh, one thing I remember that happened. [Referring to his handwritten notes] Was this? Yeah, this was during the fall of ’91, we would try to get ahold of Judy Harrington. And on her [phone] recording it would say, “Oh, I’m staying at the home of Bill Clinton in Little Rock, Arkansas, and if this is really urgent you can call me at this number.” [Laughter by Duffield] DM: And so, it was never an urgent thing because she was just down there on the weekend and so I never called her. DD: What? She was really staying with the Clintons? DM: Yeah. And I never called her. I’d get the recording on her phone number here in Denver, but I’d never call because I didn’t— DD: In the middle of their [Bill Clinton’s] campaign for President? DM: No, this was in ’91. DD: Oh, I’m sorry. DM: In the fall. DD: In the fall. But they were getting ready at that point. DM: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And so, at one of our meetings – our EPOC meetings – I said, “Judy, I have a question for you. A couple of weekends – two or three weekends – I’ve called your number and you’re staying at the home of Bill Clinton in Little Rock.” And some of the other EPOC people said, “Yeah, me too, I got that recording.” [Prolonged laughter by Duffield] �Page 26 DM: And we all – and she said yes. And I said, “Well, I just have a question, Judy. Who is Bill Clinton?” [Laughter by Duffield] DM: Because none of us had heard of him. DD: He’s only the Governor of Arkansas. DM: Yeah, that’s what she said, “Oh, he’s the Governor of Arkansas and he’s going to be the next President of the United States.” And we all laughed, thunderous laughter, like oh yeah, right, but who is this guy? [Prolonged laughter by Duffield] DM: So, he [Bill Clinton] brought Judy Harrington in among several strategists – people who worked on campaigns before – to help get him prepared to run for President. DD: Oh, wow, that’s phenomenal. DM: Yeah. DD: Interesting connection. DM: Yeah, it was a very interesting connection. And then, several years later in ’96 during the Monica Lewinsky scandal, Judy came back from Washington [DC] because after Clinton got elected [1992] he appointed her something up there. So she was in Washington. She comes back to visit us here in Denver [summer 1996] and we had a nice barbecue in Tina’s and Tea’s backyard at their home, and Judy was there. And we were all just having a nice time – all the EPOC people – and I said, “Judy, do you remember me telling you in the fall of ’91 who is Bill Clinton?” And she said, “Yeah, I do remember that and do you remember what I told you?” And I said, “Yeah, you said he would be the next President of the United States.” And she said, “Well, I’m telling you right now he’s going to be re-elected.” I said, “No, he’s not, not with this Monica Lewinsky scandal, he’s going down the tubes.” And she said, “Nope, mark my word, just like I told you all in ’91 he will be elected President, he’s going to be re-elected in ’96.” And he was. DD: He was. DM: So she was a real tough cookie. Have you ever— DD: I have not had the privilege [of meeting Judy Harrington], no. DM: No? She’s a real tough cookie and very skilled at campaigns and political strategies and all that kind of stuff. DD: Interesting. Well, let’s continue with your story. DM: Yes. As I di— DD: As I digress. �Page 27 [Laughter by Duffield] DM: As I digress. I apologize. DD: That’s quite alright. DM: So, where were we? DD: So, we were in 1991 and 1992. DM: And still with the campaign [against Amendment 2]. And again it was like all year long. I can’t believe we’re doing this again – knocking on doors, passing out flyers, talking to people, speaking engagements. And, but I had all along felt that this was going to pass statewide because any time you allow people to vote bigotry, they’re going to do that. DD: Yeah. DM: Once they pull that curtain – pull the curtain at the voting polls, you know – they’re going to pull the levers. And so, it was a tremendous disappointment but not a surprise for me. DD: Where were you? DM: Huh? DD: Where were you when it passed, when you found out? DM: Here, in Denver. DD: Were you at the party at the Mammoth Gardens? DM: Yeah. DD: Okay. DM: Yeah. And anyway, it was like people were like furious. They were shocked because there were a lot of people who were not involved in the campaign all of a sudden started coming out of the woodwork after it got passed. They were like furious. And who were they blaming? DD: The leadership of EPOC. DM: They were blaming Judy Harrington and— DD: Tea Schook. DM: And EPOC. And people were just coming out of the woodwork and just slamming them [EPOC], blaming them for this defeat. It wasn’t their [EPOC] fault. It’s the bigotry, people were voting bigotry. And, uh, but it was ugly – very ugly after the campaign. Unfortunately, one of the founding mothers of La Gente Unida a year before, she got involved in making these accusations against Judy Harrington and Tea Schook. It was very heartbreaking to see that. So, �Page 28 but Judy and EPOC took the heat, you know. They had all these different meetings where people would come and throw mud pies at them, you know, for every sin under the sun. DD: I’ve heard that in my interviews with Tea and a few other people that they didn’t feel -- so the qualification from the person I think you’re talking about was that the leadership of the no on 2 campaign [EPOC] was not diverse enough and that there wasn’t enough representation amongst different peoples -- particularly persons of color, particularly Chicano Latino people and African American people. Um, how did you feel? DM: But see, all this came out after— DD: The fact. DM: Yeah, uh, these accusations were being made about that. I remember at one of the state steering committee meetings [November 1991] I brought up the need to have more racial equity – racial/ethnic equity – throughout the campaign on all levels – committees and so on and so forth. And there was this one guy [on the committee] – Troy from Colorado Springs – he said, “Oh, that’s a regional issue, that should have nothing to do with the campaign.” DD: Right. DM: [He said] that’s just a regional issue, let each region decide what they want to do with that issue – racial and ethnic parity – in the campaign. And I said, “No it’s not a regional issue, it’s an international issue, it’s a global issue” when you want to talk about racial and ethnic parity representation and so on. So, it was brought up during the campaign. And, but these accusations that the [EPOC] campaign was excluding people, that was not true. It was not excluding anybody. DD: Okay. DM: So, it was heartbreaking, David, to watch that and to hear all about these people coming out of the woodwork – people who had never, some of whom were never involved in the campaign itself. DD: Why do you think they did that? DM: I don’t know. I think they were just trying to lash out and use different things. I don’t know. You would have to ask them: Why did you come out after the campaign and why did you bring up these issues afterwards? Why weren’t you involved in the campaign or why are you claiming that the campaign was not inclusive? DD: Right. DM: What’s up with that? DD: I don’t know. DM: But it happened and so on, and a lot of those wounds are still here to this day, you know, some of the people who felt that EPOC didn’t do enough. EPOC really took a beating over that, you know. And Judy Harrington just didn’t want to put a lot of energy into this, you know, because [President] Clinton had just gotten elected. �Page 29 DD: Right. DM: And so, she knew she was going to be appointed something up there in Washington. I don’t know what position she ended up with, but she was just so burned out. DD: Who could blame anybody at that point? DM: Yeah. And it would be interesting to see if you ever get a chance to interview her because all I know is what she told us. She was so— DD: Burned out. DM: She was just like stunned that people were just coming from all directions and blaming her -- it’s your fault that this got passed. Amazing. DD: Yeah. But we digress. DM: Yes. Well, I think it’s not a digression. It’s part of the— DD: The conversation. DM: Yeah. DD: We have to ask and pause for a moment. Do you think it was? So, in your – for the record – do you feel it was founded? Or maybe you already answered that question – no, none of this was founded. DM: I don’t think so. DD: Or it was unfounded. DM: Yeah. Yeah, I don’t think it had. I even talked to one of the founding mothers of La Gente Unida who was attacking Judy Harrington and I said I don’t think you – I’m with you on other issues, but this one I’m not with you on this – you’re really going after the wrong people. They’re not the enemy, you know. So anyway, I wish you could have talked to her because she was firm, but now she’s deceased. A lot of the people in La Gente Unida are deceased, by the way. DD: Angela Romero? DM: No, she’s still around. DD: Okay. But the woman you’re talking about, who was that? DM: Carmela Flores. DD: Carmela Flores, oh yes. DM: A dynamic activist – dynamic. DD: Yes. �Page 30 DM: But on that [blaming EPOC], she and I just better not talk about it when she went after Judy Harrington and I think she went after Tina [Scardina] as well. DD: She did -- for some time. DM: Yeah. Just hammered and hammered and hammered, not letting up. DD: There may have been other things – personal things, who knows, but we can’t speculate. DM: Yeah. DD: So coming back to your story, what did you do afterwards – after Amendment 2 passed? DM: Well, uh, La Gente Unida continued doing our work. And right around that time, my longtime friend Miguel Jaramillo – who was a co-founder of La Gente Unida – he was getting very sick. He had AIDS. And so, I had known him for years and years and years. And his health was declining, and so I began playing more of a role in— DD: His life. DM: His life, you know. He had been rejected by his family. And so, we had right around that time we wanted to put together a flyer because there were a number of groups that began to emerge after Amendment 2 – brand new organizations wanted to do this ABC-XYZ in addition to the lawsuit, you know, Romer versus Evans or Evans versus Romer, I think it was called. DD: Right. Romer v. Evans. I’ve got a tattoo on my back, I’ll show you someday. DM: Was it Romer v. Evans? DD: Romer v. Evans. DM: Not Evans v. Romer? DD: I don’t know, I probably got it wrong. [Laughter by Martinez and Duffield] DD: You can blame that on my dyslexia. DM: Because Richard Evans – who was involved in EPOC – he was the plaintiff, you know. DD: It figures that it would be Evans v. Romer and I’ve been saying it wrong all these years. DM: I don’t know, you know. DD: Whatever, anyway— DM: It was that case. And so, everybody wanted to do different things – “Boycott, we’re going to have this big old national boycott” and “we’re going to do this and that” and “we’ll never have EPOC organizations again.” You know, anyway so in 1993 La Gente Unida – we wanted to put �Page 31 together a flyer to educate people, the public, about the parallels between Amendment 2 and what happened with English-only [Amendment]. DD: Right. DM: And so, we were proposing to do it through the Human Rights Campaign because Human Rights Campaign [HRC] was giving small grants to organizations around the state to do various aspects related to the passage of Amendment 2. And so, we proposed to do this flyer. And, uh, it turned about to be a mess. It turned out to be an absolute mess because HRC wanted us – without our permission – they wanted us to work with some group from Boulder. DD: Okay. DM: On these different projects, HRC wanted all of the organizations – the new organizations – of course, La Gente Unida wasn’t founded after Amendment 2— DD: It was during [the Amendment 2 campaign]. DM: During. And so, we had this meeting with HRC. And some of the more militant members of La Gente Unida – founding mothers – stood up and said, “How dare you tell us to work with some group we don’t even know from Boulder to work on our flyer that we want to put together on the English-only Amendment and Amendment 2. How dare you do that.” And so, the people from HRC they told the founding mothers of La Gente Unida to sit down – “Sit down, you are speaking out of line” and pointing at them, you know. And so, one of the founding mothers kept reading this statement about their [HRC] cultural insensitivity by putting us, linking us up to some white group in Boulder we never worked with – they’re a brand new group and we don’t know that they even understand the issues of English only, you know. [She said] “We want to put this flyer together on our own as part of our small grant as put in our proposal that we gave to you.” Well, pretty soon one of the guys from HRC walked over and put his hand on her and said, “I told you to sit down.” And one thing you never want to do to a Chicana lesbian is touch her to try to diffuse a situation. Ooh, my God, pretty soon some of the other founding mothers of La Gente Unida, they were jumping up and they were going to -- they were going to— DD: Kick his ass. DM: Kick his ass, you know. And so, it was like pandemonium in the room with all these new organizations were there for their own little grants just like we were there for our grant. And, uh, they [HRC] were going to call the police on us. DD: Oh, wow. DM: Because they said that we were militants, you know. And granted, the Chicana lesbians from La Gente Unida, they were very -- they said, “Don’t you ever lay your hand on me again, I will kick your butt.” And he didn’t understand that, you know. Especially don’t do that to Chicana lesbians, you don’t touch them when they’re angry. Just let them be angry, you know. DD: So, there was a cultural difference. DM: Oh my God, a clear cultural difference, you know. �Page 32 DD: Which speaks a lot about the misunderstanding of one group of people – namely HRC – by another. DM: I know. DD: Right, or another or to another. DM: Oh my gosh, it was ugly, ugly, ugly. DD: So what happened next? DM: So then, we all left. Everybody from La Gente Unida left. And what went on after that at the meeting, I don’t know because we were gone. And so, we got together at our meeting the following week and we decided not to accept their [HRC] grant. Because, see, we went by consensus -- we all had to agree. DD: Right. DM: And so, that one Chicana lesbian who had been touched by that guy from HRC, she wouldn’t budge. She said, “I am not going to allow us to accept their damn money.” She wouldn’t get over it, you know. Everybody else was like, oh, let’s just go ahead and take the money, you know. And so, anyway HRC got in touch with us and they said, “You don’t have to work with that group from Boulder, you can go ahead and put your flyer together just like you want.” You know, and she still wouldn’t budge. She said, “No, just take your damn money, we don’t want your damn money,” you know. But the rest of us had already -- we were already over it, ready to move on and put the flyer together and distribute it all over the state, mailing lists and all that stuff. So, but then Miguel was getting really sick around that time -- getting worse, requiring more and more of my time. And he was writing a column at Out Front [newspaper]. It was the first column that they ever had from the perspective of someone living with AIDS, and he was very blunt in his columns about what he was going through, you know. But it was a very well-read column. People were just praising it all over town – like, oh, this is incredible, somebody willing to talk about this. And then, as part of having AIDS he went blind. DD: Right. DM: And so I told him, “What do you want to do now?” He said, “I want to continue with the column. I want you to come down there with me.” And he would basically dictate to me what he wants me to type and then he would like to have me read it back to him. I said, okay, that’s fine. And so, we did that for quite a while. DD: How many months or years? DM: Oh, no, it wasn’t years because he was deteriorating quickly, you know. And, uh, Sam Gallegos was the editor at that point, so it was really good to have someone – a Chicano gay man – being the editor where we wouldn’t have to do any explanations about anything. So that was consuming so much of my time during this post-Amendment 2 era. And then, he finally died in ’94. And I didn’t realize at the time how much of a toll it had taken on me, taking care of him all this time and then losing him through death. Because all of a sudden I didn’t want to go to La Gente Unida meetings anymore, I didn’t want to go out to have lunch with friends, I didn’t want to go to the movies, you know. And I didn’t understand – what’s going on with me? And so, I went into grief counseling. And I was told back then in 1994 – be careful not to get a gay or �Page 33 lesbian counselor in this town. And I said why? And they said because your stuff will be spread all over town. And I said, “Are you kidding me, there’s supposed to be -- whatever happened to confidentiality?” Counselor-patient, basic 101 confidentiality. And they said, oh, that doesn’t exist, I’m just telling you don’t get a gay or lesbian— DD: Counselor. DM: Grief counselor. DD: Okay. DM: I said, “Well, okay.” I was stunned, David, to hear this that people were spreading – these therapists were spreading things all over town. And I don’t know if that was going on or not. That’s what I was told. DD: Okay. DM: So I got a straight Latina therapist, and she was good – really, really good. And I told her – I said I think I’m having tremendous problems with Miguel’s death, you know, and I don’t know why – you know, why it’s so hard because I had helped take care of him and everything. So then, we started talking about different things and so she said, “So was there anyone else that you were kind of like a caregiver for in your past?” I said, my mother, you know, when I was 20. And, uh, so she said to talk more about that and then she said, “And after your mother passed away, what did you do?” I said I went on with my life – just went on with my life. And she said, “Now did you really go on with your life?” I said, “I did, I thought I did.” You know, but anyway, she made this link – she thought I had a lot of unresolved grief over the death of my mother and that it was all coming out in the open with the death of Miguel. She made this link. And so, anyway, she was really helpful and I was able to work through all that, you know. But his death really impacted me and I didn’t know how much because I was trying to back off from La Gente Unida and just people in general. DD: It became so overwhelming. DM: Oh, it was overwhelming. I didn’t even want to go to work. I didn’t want to do anything. People would call me and say let’s go to lunch, you know, and I’d say I’m so busy. I was not busy. I just didn’t want to be around people. DD: You were unresolved. DM: Yeah. DD: Yeah. DM: And, uh, so that was a major turning point was when he died. And so, yeah, the anti -- the post-Amendment [2] crowd just kept growing and growing in this town. This new group and that new group, it was good to see all this new wave of activists. You know, every time you’d turn around some new organization was being formed. [Referring to the interview outline provided by Duffield] So then, on your outline here, you talked about the period 1996 to 2006 and then you put “unsure?” And then you put in parentheses “2003 anniversary.” I wasn’t sure what that 2003 anniversary – maybe it was the City [Council] Denver gay revolt— �Page 34 DD: Denver gay revolt, yeah. So, we’re actually at a point where the library’s going to be closing soon. It’s already 7:15 [p.m.]. Uh, would you mind if we wrapped up for tonight? DM: Uh, yeah, because I think that I want just a little bit more – just a little bit more. DD: Please, please, go right ahead. DM: And I think we’ll be able to take clear up through 2019. DD: You think so in 45 minutes? DM: Oh, yeah. DD: Okay, after you, sir. DM: Yeah. So, from that time era 1996 to 2006, one thing that really stood out to me was in the year 2000 HRC – speaking of HRC – they selected me to receive the Paul Hunter Award. DD: Oh, wow. DM: And, of course, people in La Gente Unida said, “Don’t take it, don’t take it, that’s HRC.” Some of the militant founding mothers were still holding on, they weren’t forgiving what happened back in 1993. And, uh, so anyway, and others in La Gente Unida said, “Go ahead and take it, that’s a great award, nice award.” Did you ever get to talk to anybody about Paul Hunter? DD: Peripherally, here and there. DM: Okay. I did an interview with him in 1990 and it’s at the Colorado History Museum. DD: I’ve listened to it. DM: Okay. So, uh, anyway about a week before the event was supposed to take place, I got a call from a couple of African American activists saying that they were going to be picketing outside the Adams Mark Hotel where the HRC event was going to be held. Because Adams Mark Hotel was engaged in discrimination against African Americans, they had a lot of incidents going on in the year 2000. And I said, oh, I won’t cross your picket line. That’s me as a longtime activist, I don’t do that, and I will march with you. You know, if this is what the issue is with that hotel, I will march with you and I will not attend the HRC event. DD: Okay. DM: So I get on the phone and I call the HRC people who were putting on the event and told them what was going on. And they said, oh my gosh, we didn’t know that. Well, anyway, they [HRC] ended up losing their deposit because they moved – they moved the event from the Adams Mark Hotel. They lost their deposit. They had to pull some strings to have it down at the Denver Convention Center at the last minute because they didn’t want to take a black eye. You know, HRC didn’t want to have this black eye that, oh, we’re somehow not supporting the African Americans and that type of thing. DD: Got you. �Page 35 DM: So anyway, in 2003 I was involved in the campaign to save bilingual education. It was a ballot initiative here in this state. And again, that was like a lot of activity on all levels with the campaign volunteering -- flyers, speaking engagements, licking the envelopes, and everything. And bilingual education, as you know, is a very hot-button issue like English-only is. DD: Right. DM: And so, because this was going statewide I predicted it would win to get rid of it. And so, right in the middle of that campaign, who comes into the picture but Rita Montero— [Brief interruption by an intercom bilingual announcement that the building will close in 30 minutes] DM: [Referring to the bilingual announcement] We were talking about bilingual— DD: And it comes up in the library [announcement] right then and there. Who wins in the end, right? [Laughter by Martinez and Duffield] DM: Yeah, right. DD: So, what happens? DM: Rita Montero, the one who was in the English-only campaign, she was the plaintiff in that lawsuit to try— DD: From 1988. DM: Yeah. So now 15 years later, here she's involved against bilingual education. DD: What? DM: Yeah. It was -- what? Here's this militant Chicana back in the '70s and '80s, and now in 2003 she's lining up with the folks who are trying to get rid of bilingual education. DD: Now that sounds illogical. DM: Oh my God, it was. It was, it was. It was a messy situation, you know. And so, we had to deal with all that throughout the campaign. Manolo Gonzalez was the campaign manager, very nice young man. And he even gave me a little plaque for all my work that I did in the campaign, you know. But, we won. DD: Yes. And by a lot, too. DM: I don't know if it was a lot. I don't remember the percentages, but they said that at the last minute -- like a month or two, a month before the election in 2003 -- that it was Jared Polis [who �Page 36 was elected Colorado Governor in 2018] and some other people who are involved in these big donations to campaigns— DD: The so-called Four Horsemen. [See notation with an asterisk (*) below about the “Four Horsemen” in Colorado.] DM: Yeah. They pumped a lot of money into this to do TV ads at the last minute, and they say that's what pulled it over. That's what Manolo said, told us. I don't know, but we won. DD: Why did Rita go against it this time? DM: Well, she had been elected to the school board here in Denver in the '90s. And of course in the beginning she was all 100% pro-bilingual education and all of her votes on the school board were consistent. And then, all of a sudden I guess in the early 2000s she had a young son -who was in Denver Public Schools -- who wasn't doing well in the bilingual program. So she pulled him out of it, you know, and put him in some program where it's just English only. DD: Immersion. DM: Yeah. DD: Yeah. DM: And it worked for him, for her son. And then she flipped, and she said I'm against bilingual education for everybody. DD: Okay. DM: So it was quite a turn-around for her, you know. DD: So what happened after this campaign. DM: Uh, well, that was pretty much it, you know. So I had those campaigns -- the English-only, then the first EPOC campaign, the second [EPOC] one, and then this one. It was all good experience doing all four of those campaigns. DD: Do you feel vindicated or somehow justified that it had passed this last time? DM: Yeah, it was very uplifting because I just figured that would go down the tubes just like I thought Amendment 2 would go down the tubes. DD: Right. And you could have been right. _________________________ (*) The “Four Horsemen” were four Colorado millionaire Democrats – Jared Polis, Tim Gill, Patricia Stryker, Rutt Bridges – who donated money to liberal causes. Although Martinez referred to the bilingual-education ballot issue taking place in 2003, it was the year 2002. �Page 37 DM: Yeah, if they hadn't pumped all that money in at the last minute. That's what Manolo said. DD: Right. DM: Whether that's true, I don't know. And I don't know what the final outcome was, but I know that we won and bilingual education was not tossed into the— DD: River, so to speak. DM: Into the river, yeah. DD: So what happened next? DM: So then in 2004, right around that time La Gente Unida is still going. One of our board members Lorenzo Ramirez -- do you need me to spell it? DD: No, no, I got it, I know who Lorenzo is. DM: Okay. He decided to start a gay Latino community center here in Denver and it was called El Futuro: E-l F-u-t-u-r-o. DD: Was it an acronym? DM: Uh, no, it just meant The Future. DD: The Future. Okay. DM: Yeah. And it was for gay and bisexual Latino Chicano men because they didn't feel like the existing [GLBT] community center or the existing Colorado AIDS Project was doing enough for Chicanos and Latinos in the gay community -- gay male community. They [El Futuro] were focused on gay male. So they got all that started. Lorenzo was the ringleader of it, and then they were getting funding and so on and so forth. And I would defer all of that to him. If you ever want to interview him, he has all of the ins and outs of that community center. But it basically folded after about five years – 2009 and 2010. There was a lot of infighting going on in the organization between the Mexicanos and the Chicanos. And again, he could fill you in. I tried to stay as much away from that, other than what he was telling me, you know. And some of the other guys like Reynaldo Mireles -- he's currently the SAGE [program for GLBT elders] Coordinator [Manager] - he was involved in El Futuro like one of the directors. And then also Chris Medina was involved, but he just passed away last year. Uh, so, but Reynaldo -- but I think Lorenzo could give you a full picture because he was involved from starting it to clear up to when it folded, you know. And then, La Gente Unida kept going and going -- doing the speaking engagements and cultural events, and just kept going and going and going, you know. And then— DD: What sort of cultural events? DM: Oh, like Cinco de Mayo, Mexican Independence Day, El Dia de Los Muertos. DD: Where were they held? �Page 38 DM: We'd have them at different venues around town -- like at restaurants or art galleries, that type of thing, you know. DD: Okay. DM: [Pointing to the interview outline provided by Duffield] And then, you put on here "personal and overcoming illness." I scratched out "overcoming" because I've been living with an illness for 14 years. DD: Since about what? DM: 2005. DD: 2005. DM: Yeah, through the present. And there's no cure. It's a neurological illness. And so, that dominates my life almost every day. But during all this time period from the year 2000 through the present, I've been the neighborhood advocate where I live -- the volunteer neighborhood advocate. And I've been the volunteer board president at the nonprofit condos where I live -- not just in title, but I do a lot of the nitty-gritty work around the property. And then as you probably recall, I did ten years of volunteer work down at the Auraria [college] campus. DD: That's where we first met. DM: Yeah. And so, you know, my volunteer work continues as a very special important part of who I am as a person. And that comes from my value system from the '60s. I got all that back then -- you always volunteer and give back to the community as opposed to just focus on bettering yourself. DD: Right. DM: So that's my life in a nutshell. DD: I got to ask a follow-up question because it's important. DM: Okay. DD: Tell me a little bit more about La Gente Unida. Um, so you would have been involved since the very beginning. DM: Yep, since 1991. DD: What are some of your major memories? Like the big -- besides the stuff around Amendment 2, which we've already talked about. DM: Uh, I have a lot of fond memories. We drew in so many people -- Chicanos, Chicanas, you know -- down through the years. Just dozens -- I can't even, I lost track of all the names almost. But our events were always so successful -- cultural events or just regular social events -- we would just draw in the crowds, you know. I don't know where they were coming from. But one of the situations that really stands out, we had this one young Chicano who got involved -- I'd say �Page 39 around the mid '90s -- and he was real shy and quiet at first when he'd come to our events, you know, very young guy. And then, uh, I just kind of watched him blossom like a flower like I did with [La Gente Unida co-founder] Gary DeHerrera. This particular guy started blossoming like a flower. And, uh, well anyway he got so involved with La Gente Unida -- this was the first organization he'd ever been involved with. He's just really devoting 110 percent of himself -- not 100 percent, but 110 [percent] -- and so he started checking around everybody. He didn't feel like everybody was giving as much as he was giving to it. He wanted everybody else to give 110 percent. DD: Right. DM: And, uh, so I kind of had to pull him aside and have a one-on-one talk, you know, that you can't expect all volunteers to give as much as you're giving -- you are giving 110 percent, it's clear to everybody, but you can't expect that from everybody, you know. And I said you can't be finger-pointing at them that they're sitting on their nalgas [butt cheeks], you know, for not doing anything. But anyway, it was kind of a heartbreaking situation because he was -- he really wanted to eventually become like the head of the organization, but he'd already alienated a lot of people because he'd already finger-pointed -- you're not giving enough like I am -- you know. But yet he was just a star performer, there was no doubt about it, once he got over his shy phase because in the beginning he didn't even identify as Chicano. DD: Really? DM: Yeah. He identified as Hispanic, and that's a no-no in La Gente Unida -- you don't ever identify as Hispanic. DD: Because of the origin of the word? DM: Right. DD: Okay. DM: And we were very Chicano and Chicana identified, you know. And we didn't really trounce on anybody -- like with him, we didn't come down hard on him because he called himself Hispanic. But that just gave, uh, spoke volumes about where his consciousness was when he first got connected to us -- he was still Hispanic. But after a while, boy, he was Chicano and [began saying] “Don't you dare call me Hispanic.” He became very militant, you know. [Laugher by Duffield] So it was a very interesting experience -- like 27 years, David. That's a long time. And there were two of the founding mothers -- and I won't name their names -- at one point they became lovers. And you don't ever want to have people involved in an organization -- especially on the board level -- where there are lovers involved. Because when things are going fine, no problem. But when they're having problems in their personal relationship, they brought them to the meeting. It was ugly. We had many ugly meetings when we had to cancel the meeting -- we all had to terminate the meeting and leave -- because they were voting against each other and arguing over issues because they were having problems in their personal relationship. DD: Really? �Page 40 DM: Yeah, it was heartbreaking. DD: How long did that go on? DM: About two years. DD: Two years. And before or after 2000? DM: Before. DD: Before, okay. DM: Yeah. And then with one of the -- like [co-founder] Gary DeHerrera, rest his soul, he's passed away, he was involved in a relationship, but not with anybody on the board. But he found out -- because he was also involved with Stonewall Democrats -- he found out that his partner was having an affair with somebody from Stonewall Democrats on the board while Gary was on the board. And the whole [Stonewall Democrats] board knew it, but they wouldn't tell Gary that his partner was having an affair with this other board member. DD: So what were some big things? Like good things, major goals, and accomplishments that La Gente Unida over the course -- and I know we only have a few minutes. DM: Yeah. I would just say, considering that we were known as a militant organization in the beginning and we were also known as a separatist organization in the beginning – can you believe that? DD: Well, no. DM: We were not separatist, we were not – when I think of militants, I think real militant people like Rita Montero. She was a militant Chicana activist, you know. But, uh, we had that reputation. And considering how we got stuck with that in the beginning and what we accomplished over the 27 years of educating people in the community, doing numerous speaking engagements, doing a lot of lobbying on issues at the State legislature, I mean we did a lot of good work. And we put out a newsletter. Theresa Sanchez was the founder of that newsletter. Well, actually, Timoteo was the founder of the newsletter and Theresa Sanchez took it to a new level of making sure it kept going year after year after year. So we did a lot, we accomplished a lot. And with the deaths – one death after another of some of the key people— DD: The deaths? When? DM: Deaths, oh, like starting with Gary’s death in 2006 I think it was, clear up through the dissolution of the organization— DD: Which was only three years or two years— DM: Two years ago, yeah. But that really took a big hit because it was like one right after another – the women were dying, the men were dying. I’m basically the only [survivor] of the founders. [Co-founder] Linda Romero is still alive, but she doesn’t live in this state anymore. I think [co-founder] Angela Romero is still here [in Denver], but I’ve heard that she’s kind of in seclusion – that’s what I’ve been told from different people. She was one of the plaintiffs in the Amendment 2 lawsuit [1993], by the way. �Page 41 DD: She was. DM: You probably saw her name up there. DD: I did. DM: Richard Evans was the main one [plaintiff], but there were several. DD: So, it may be worth another story at another time, but it [La Gente Unida] is such a fascinating organization for what they did and what you all did for a long time. But, so what else are we missing? What didn’t we talk about? DM: We covered quite a bit of territory. DD: We have. So as we conclude this, then, tell me what you want someone to get from these stories of yours – from your series of oral history so far. DM: M-m-m-m. Don’t ever give up. Even in times that the odds seem like they’re against you, just keep going and doing what you think has to be done. Uh, but you know that [is] kind of a little bit interesting for me to say that because, like right now in this time in history, this is the worst I have ever seen this country. DD: Because of the Trump Administration? DM: Well, not just that administration. Just the level of racism that’s going on in this country, you know, the hatred, the anti-immigration mentality, the attacks on transgender people. For me as a longtime activist from 1964 through the present – as we sit here I can still go out and march and everything – it’s just heartbreaking for me to see that we have gotten down this low in the gutter. And even though I said don’t ever give up, I don’t have much hope, David, for the direction this country has taken. I wish I could sit here and say be optimistic, but I don’t have much hope and I don’t see many signs that we’re going to pull out of this – this gutter that we’re in right now. And if it was just the Trump Administration, that would be one thing, but there are millions and millions of people with his mindset. Uh, and so my prediction is that he’s going to be re-elected next year and we’re going to continue going on with this— DD: Bullshit. DM: This crap. DD: That’s another way to put it. DM: Wish I could be more hopeful. DD: But that’s only the now. That’s only the next four years, hopefully. You say don’t give up. Where does that come from? DM: That comes from being raised by a Chicana mother who taught me to, uh, be independent and to stand up for myself. And if everybody in the room is saying something and it doesn’t make sense to me, it’s okay to question it. And my mother taught me that. She was illiterate – �Page 42 she couldn’t read and write – but she taught me that value very early. And so, I think that’s where a lot of that comes from – you know, stand up for yourself and don’t give up. DD: And ask questions. DM: And ask questions, and it’s okay to ask questions. Because she was basically an outcast in the eyes of the Catholic Church. Even though she was in an arranged marriage with my dad, who’s also Catholic, but, uh, when they split up, you know, she became an outcast because you’re not supposed to divorce and she wanted the divorce. She wanted out of it [the marriage] and her family came all the way from New Mexico to Colorado Springs to try to talk her out of it and she wouldn’t listen to it. She stood up for herself and says, you know, this man has hurt me beyond the borders and I want out of this [marriage]. So I was raised with her. Because she had an outcast status and she worked in a Mexican bar – which worsened her reputation because what kind of woman works in a bar? we all know what kind of women work in a bar – but anyway, so I got a lot of my values from her, you know. And one of the things I said at the HRC Paul Hunter Award event [2000] was that my mother always told me – taught me – to have compassion for people who are less and less [likely to escape] poverty than we are, you know, because we grew up – I grew up – in poverty. And she always told me, “Tengas compasión para ellos que tienen nada” [Have compassion for those who have nothing] – you know, we may not have much, but there’s people who don’t have anything, you have compassion for them. And this [value] comes from an uneducated woman who was illiterate, teaching me things like that, you know. DD: Yeah, I know. DM: So I attribute a lot of the values I have – even my volunteer work – to what she taught me growing up. DD: Good. Is there anything else we haven’t talked about this evening that you’d like to? DM: No, I think we are finished. DD: All right. DM: 1964 through the present. DD: [Laughter] All right, thank you for doing this story. DM: Okay. +++++ End of interview +++++ � https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/a7626d519bb2d34195a7e0e5d823677f.pdf 745ea96779a42e83d6c9d497e9f53209 PDF Text Text Page 1 Interview September 9, 2019. Narrator = Donaciano Martinez. Interviewer = David Duffield. DD: All right, tonight is September 9, 2019. My name is David Duffield. I am interviewing Donaciano Martinez as part of the Colorado LGBTQ History Project. This is an oral history that will continue Donaciano’s series from a few years ago. We’re going to begin tonight. We’re at Denver Public Library in the Kopel Room, and we’re going to begin tonight talking about the 1973 symposium for the GLF at Colorado College. Donaciano, thank you for agreeing to do this oral history. DM: I’m pleased to be here. DD: All right, well, let’s go ahead and get started. DM: So, I’m not going to talk about the symposium. DD: Oh, forgive me, that’s already in there. DM: That was in the previous interview. So, let’s go down to the next topic with the continuation of GLF [Gay Liberation Front] in the spring. What was going on that year was a lot of police harassment in Colorado Springs. And I’m not sure why that intensified that year, but it was like constant outside the gay bar. And police were stopping you, you know, checking IDs, checking people’s cars. It was just on and on and on. And like I had discussed previously, GLF for some reason a lot of the gay male conservatives started coming out of the woodwork that year in 1973 in conjunction with all this police harassment going on. And the gay conservative men wanted to turn GLF into basically a social group. So, here we got all the police doing their thing and we’re wanting to address that and the gay conservative men wanted to have cookie sales and just turn GLF into a real social venue for gay men. DD: Why did they want that? DM: They were infuriated by the militance of GLF that we had maintained from ‘69 up through the [1972] symposium at Colorado College when [the college president] Werner denied us on campus and so on. So, a lot of the gay conservative men they just wanted to put the brakes on the militant tone of GLF. Well, Gay Liberation Front, its origins were militant and they were not any kind of moderate organization nationwide. So, there we were in ’73 dealing with this – the gay conservative men wanted to take GLF into a more moderate organization and then the police were doing their thing. And so, basically that year we thought okay let the gay conservative men have their say in this or take it over, whatever. And we had predicted that it wouldn’t last long, and sure enough it did not last long. They couldn’t even get, you know, five or six guys to come out to their meetings to talk about nothing. DD: Right. DM: Nothingness, you know. So, we just let it go and they continued with the name GLF that year but they didn’t want to do anything with the police either. And, coinciding with the police harassment in Colorado Springs, it was also going on up here [in Denver] that year. It was really intensifying up here. We didn’t know that firsthand. People would come down and tell us, “Oh God, the police are just going crazy in Denver.” And we said, “They’re going crazy down here, �Page 2 too.” I don’t know what it is. If they had a coordinated campaign, we never found out. But it was very heavy-duty that year. Gay men at the bar were just dreading to go there because they knew they were going to get stopped before they even went in to the place. And there were no raids inside the bar. All of this harassment was going on outside. So anyway, we just said let’s just kick back and see what these gay conservative men do and nothing really panned out. It just kind of slowly fizzled. And so, right around that time we thought you know maybe we should start focusing on establishing a community center down here in Colorado Springs. And so, we said okay. So we formed the nonprofit and incorporated it under Lambda Services Bureau, which is interesting because from ’69 ‘til that point we were always anti-system, anti-rules, antigovernment – you know, any kind of formal ties to the so-called establishment. We were anti, but at that point we thought well if we want to start talking about forming a community center, we’re going to have to go through the system. So, it was a new experience for some of us after those four years of “don’t have anything to do with the system.” And so, one part of that decision was in order to get money from donors we would need a nonprofit and so we formed and then we said well now we need to apply for tax-exemption so that donors can write this off on taxes. And so, we did all that and thought God we’re really getting connected to the system now – the IRS and Secretary of State to incorporate, etc. But meanwhile, we continued a lot of the same services that we had been doing with GLF – speaking engagements, counseling, the phone line – some of the same things, none of which the gay conservative men did. They just shunned all of that, you know. But once we started Lambda Services Bureau [LSB], we continued a lot of those same services to lesbians and gay men. DD: Where was LSB housed or where did it live, so to speak? DM: We didn’t have like an office, and so sometimes we would live out of Truman’s house. He had just bought a house that year, and he had a little room and sometimes we would use his. And then sometimes we would use the Community Action Program down there, which was the anti-poverty program that I had been involved in and that was addressed earlier in one of the earlier interviews when we talked about the gay underground and my activism in the ‘60s. So I still had connections with the Community Action Program, and they said “Sure come on down.” So we would just go wherever we could find, you know, because we were hoping to get enough money to set up a little office somewhere down there – our own little office, which would again be kind of contrary to what we had been going through for four years. Like, h-m-m, I don’t know about having our own little office and then a center, you know, it was just beyond our comprehension. So once we applied for tax exemption, right away the IRS approved it. We like fell out of the chair, like are you serious? It happened rather quickly. They sent us a letter saying you are acknowledged as an official nonprofit and your donors will be allowed to do tax writeoffs, and so on and so forth. We thought, wow, this is great, you know. And so, we were all charged up and then we continued doing a lot of the speaking engagements and it started expanding into not just Colorado College speaking in the classrooms there, but down at UCCS. Do you know what that is? University of Colorado, Colorado Springs. A lot of those classes were inviting us to come and speak, and so on. So, and then not too long after we got approved for tax-exempt status from the IRS, here comes the letter in the mail telling us that they wanted us to fill out a one-page form that they sent to us agreeing that whenever our speakers were in public we would not state that gays and lesbians are normal and on a par with straight people. And we said, “Are you kidding?” It was like a one-page thing and it was very explicit, the language restricting our speech what we could and could not say at our speaking engagements. So when we talked about that at our board meeting, it was like unanimous we are not going to sign that form. Evidently, that form had been signed by other gay and lesbian groups in the ‘50s and ‘60s – Mattachine, Daughters of Bilitis, Society for Individual Rights. They would just sign it for the IRS to get their tax exemption. We were not going to do that. And so, the war was on. �Page 3 And we challenged them, we filled out all the paperwork saying this is a violation of our First Amendment right to free speech, and so on and so forth. And that case got bogged down almost three years. It did not get really resolved until 1977. DD: Wow. DM: After I had moved to Denver. DD: Yeah, two years. DM: And we won, and it set a legal precedent for all gay and lesbian nonprofit groups throughout this country to get tax exemption without having to sign that form. DD: Wonderful. DM: So, but it was just odd stuff, you know, going back and forth with them through the mail and they wanted more forms about why we were not going to sign it and that other groups for over 10 or 15 years had signed that form. And we wrote back saying, “We don’t care how many groups have signed it or how long it has gone on, we are not going to sign this.” You know, we drew the line in the sand, so to speak, and took them on. So, but then, we just continued doing our regular services. But we couldn’t tell people that we were tax-exempt, so a lot of donors were hesitant to give money toward getting a community center started, and so on. And then, like in 1975, there was an ad in the -DD: Can we pause for just a moment and backtrack a second? DM: Yeah. DD: I’m curious if you can tell me do you remember the names of the conservative gay men? DM: Oh, God, not their last names. DD: That’s okay. Can you describe them? DM: Uh, a lot of them had little small businesses in Colorado Springs. Like I remember two of them had like a, oh, it wasn’t really an art store but where they had handcraft things, you know. As I vaguely recall, their first names were Terry and Jerry. DD: And where was their store, do you remember? DM: All of these conservative gay men had their little stores in downtown Colorado Springs. DD: About where at, do you mean? DM: On Tejon. DD: On Tejon. And who were the others? DM: Huh? DD: Who were the others? �Page 4 DM: Those names I cannot remember. I want to say that one of the guys, oh there was this really well-known store there. It wasn’t like a jewelry store, but it was like fancy. DD: Antiques or something. DM: Antiques or something like that, you know, and he was somehow connected to all that – the gay conservative men who wanted GLF to become a social group. But I don’t remember his name. DD: That’s okay. DM: I mean we didn’t socialize. Even at the bar, they’d be in their part of the room and we’d be in another part. We never really socialized. We weren’t like arch-enemies, but we just lived in different worlds, you know. We had different visions of what we thought needed to be done at that time in history. DD: So, if going forward a little bit. Who were some of the founding members of LSB with you? DM: Truman. DD: What was Truman’s last name? DM: Harris. DD: Okay, thank you. DM: Dorothy Bell, she was a lesbian feminist. I was a co-founder. Jan Harris was also involved in co-founding, and as I recall those were the four co-founders. DD: And where did they all come from? DM: Everybody is from down there in Colorado Springs. Dorothy Bell was more involved in the lesbian-feminist community, and Jan Harris was more involved with the anti-poverty program and anti-racism projects. And I had known her [Jan] in the ‘60s when we were both involved in the anti-poverty program, and then I had known Truman through the peace movement first, and so on. So that’s kind of their brief activist backgrounds. DD: And in terms of some of the activities of LSB, you mentioned speaking engagements. DM: Yes. DD: Did you do some of those? DM: Yes. DD: Do you remember a few of them? DM: Hah, not really. DD: That’s okay. �Page 5 DM: I mean we had so many because for some reason it really picked up after we started Lambda Services Bureau and we put the word out that this is an official nonprofit and we listed the services – referral services, speaking engagements, the hot line, and the counseling oneon-one. We never offered group counseling, but just peer counseling one on one. DD: Okay, cool. DM: And that’s the same stuff that GLF was doing. It was nothing new. DD: So LSB and GLF were continuing on at the same time. DM: No, GLF had fizzled. DD: Because of the conservatives. DM: Yeah, they let it and they couldn’t get a good turn-out. DD: But LSB was surviving and thriving. DM: Uh-huh, yeah. DD: So, what kinds of phone calls would folks call in with? DM: Oh, the typical “You know I think I’m gay, but I’m not sure.” DD: Okay. DM: Or “I got arrested at a porno theater” down there, “do you know any lawyers that can handle my case?” Lesbians calling in for, you know, like reproductive issues that the Women’s Health Clinic handled, but some of the lesbians had not gotten really connected up with Women’s Health Clinic yet. Which was interesting because the Women’s Health Clinic got started like around 1972 and it was started by lesbian feminists. DD: In Colorado Springs? DM: In Colorado Springs, but yet they were not connected to the bar lesbians. You know, a lot of the lesbians who started the Women’s Health Clinic were previously in heterosexual marriages. And there’s a well-known activist these days, I don’t think she still lives here in Denver. But when I first met her, she was Mrs. so-and-so in a heterosexual marriage and had kids. DD: Okay. DM: And then all of a sudden she started going to the National Organization for Women meetings and then the next thing I knew she was leaving her husband and leaving the kids. You can have the kids, you know, and she got really involved with all those women from Women’s Health Clinic, the lesbian feminists. And some of those others in Women’s Health Clinic had a similar background where they were in straight marriages and then evolved to lesbian separatism, basically. �Page 6 DD: That’s amazing. Do you feel at liberty to discuss their names? DM: Well, the one I’m thinking of she’s very well-known here in Denver. But when I met her in Colorado Springs in the ‘60s and ‘70s when she was married, she was Mrs. Robinson. DD: Oh, okay, let’s pause for just a second. Back to Lambda Services Bureau, so it went well and you were heavily involved for two years from ‘73 until you moved to Denver. DM: Yeah. DD: And why eventually the move? DM: Well, there was a publication. It was called The Scene, and that was the only publication that you could find about gay and lesbian life. And it was distributed at the bars, you know, down there. And so, one day we were in the bar and I was looking at The Scene and there was this ad in The Scene saying “Looking for a gay secretary.” And I thought oh that’s interesting, an interesting ad “Lawyer looking for a gay secretary.” And I showed it to Truman, and he was just like “That’s got to be spoof.” He didn’t think that was real because Ron Wilson who ran The Scene, the publication, he did a lot of spoof in that publication. And it wasn’t really well written, but Truman just said “Oh, that’s Ron Wilson just playing around, that’s not real.” But it had a phone number, you know. And I was at that point working in Legal Aid down there in Colorado Springs which is a nonprofit that provides services to low-income people, and I had been working there for like two years. So I had a little bit of legal experience. That’s not what my degree, college degree, was in but I had those two years and I thought, well, what the heck I’ll drink to that. [Laughter by Duffield and Martinez, who raised his hand upward as if holding a cocktail glass]. I’ll drink to that, some lawyer’s looking for a gay secretary. [More laughter by Duffield and Martinez] And we laughed, and Truman hammed it up and said I would be foolish to think that’s for real. So, anyway, I did give the number a call and it was Jerry Gerash. And he said, “Yeah, I’m looking for a gay secretary.” And I said, “Well, I’ve never done secretarial work.” I’d done it like in the course of Lambda Services Bureau doing the paperwork, filing and stuff like that, but as far as legal stuff I’ve got some training in divorce cases at the Legal Aid and child custody, things like that, all civil cases. So he said, “Well, why don’t we just meet.” You know, and unbeknownst to me, he was one of the speakers at that symposium that was held in Colorado College in 1972. DD: Oh, wow. DM: You know, when we were having this big battle with the president of the college over getting GLF chartered, all of a sudden they had this symposium called “Same Sex Lifestyles.” We thought why don’t they say gay and lesbian lifestyles, for God’s sake. And they brought in all these bigwigs from out of town when they knew that we had those kind of speakers who could do that. If you want to have a symposium, why don’t you draw on local activists to do it. Anyway, they brought in all the bigwigs and one of them was Jerry Gerash. He spoke at that symposium, but I just didn’t know him then. But in 1975 we met, and he told me about the law firm that it’s not just him. It’s got two Chicano lawyers who are connected to the Crusade for Justice, which is the Chicano civil rights organization. And then there was a fourth lawyer who is a lesbian �Page 7 feminist – Ruth Buechler is her name. And so, anyway, it got to be I met Jerry first and then subsequently I came up to meet the other lawyers in the office because I would be helping do work with them as well. But my primary focus would be working with Jerry and Ruth. So, anyway, I thought I don’t know if I want to move to Denver, you know, because I perceived Denver as being a big city. Having been raised in a small little town, Colorado Springs was very small in those years. And so, anyway, after meeting all the lawyers and kind of getting the general idea of what I would be doing, there was another secretary in the office – a Chicana, straight Chicana activist – and so she would have part of the secretarial duties and I would have some. So, anyway, I got hired and I was very hesitant at first once they made the offer for me to move up here. And then, anyway, I talked about it with Jan and Truman and Dorothy and other people – Nancy Wilsted from the Women’s Health Clinic – and they thought it would be a good experience. You know, just give it a try, it wouldn’t be carved in stone. If I didn’t like it, just go back. DD: Right. DM: So, I packed my suitcase and one of my Chicano gay friends Ricardo Nuñez – who later was murdered down there like in 1991 when I was involved in the EPOC organization here in Denver fighting for the ordinance – Ricardo Nuñez, who was my friend, brought me up here to Denver when I moved here in 1975. Put all my little belongings in his car and just one trip, we came up. And so, I hadn’t really unpacked my bags yet and I found a little place over here on 16th and Logan. And I didn’t really finish unpacking my bags and the Chicana secretary at the office who was closely involved with the Crusade for Justice, she said, “So, whose side are you going to be on now that you’re in Denver?” And I said, “What do you mean whose side am I going to be on?” She said, well in Denver, you’re either pro-Corky Gonzales – who was the militant co-founder of the Crusade for Justice – or you’re against him. There’s no in between. And I said, “Well, I don’t know much about all of that. I was not raised here, so I don’t know.” And she said, “You’re going to have to make up your mind because people in this town they judge you by who you stand with. Are you standing with Corky’s side?” Because there’s a whole bunch of people on the other side who do not like him, they hate him. And so, I thought oh my God what am I getting myself into? I didn’t say that to her because just picture my suitcase in my little apartment still hasn’t been unpacked, should I go back to Colorado Springs? [Laughter by Duffield and Martinez] Is this what I’m getting into? And so, anyway, I continued to go to work and I did not make a stand like I can’t decide if I’m pro-somebody or anti when I don’t know all the stuff, the history of it. I’ll try to educate myself and learn about it, but it was very intense. Just that piece of it was very intense because here I am in an office where three of the people – the Chicana secretary and two of the lawyers – are directly connected to the Crusade for Justice. DD: Right. DM: So, anyway, it didn’t seem like I was up here very long when there was some kind of conflict going on between Jerry and the lesbian lawyer because the lesbian lawyer, Ruth, she was involved in a pro-Palestinian group that was anti-Israel. And so, she just couldn’t keep that at home or whatever. She started putting up posters in her little office there. We were located right down here at 16th and Broadway kind of across from where I showed you The Door [gay bar] used to be. So, there used to be a building across the street called the Majestic Building and that’s where we were. So, in her little office she would put up these pro-Palestinian posters that just offended Jerry to the limit because the organization that she was connected to – she’s �Page 8 not Palestinian, she was just a supporter, an ally – and they would have big arguments about that, that whole issue, because he’s Jewish, you know. And then there was a lot of rift going on among the Chicano lawyers, some stuff going on. I wasn’t sure what that was all about. And finally they all decided to go their separate way. And I thought, oh my God, you know, because this happened so quickly like within months after I had been up here. And so, Jerry said he wants me to go with him. And I said, well okay, you know. So Ruth got her own little la-la office. Did I say la-la? DD: Yeah. DM: Her own la-la law office. And Alfredo Peña, who was a brother of Federico Peña -DD: Right, the future mayor. DM: Yeah. He [Alfredo] and Kenny Padilla, they got their own separate offices. They went their separate ways, and so I really didn’t get to know them that well. And so, I went and I can’t remember where Jerry got his little office. I want to think it’s over here on 12th and Grant, there was a little area there where he got his office. And then later, like maybe five years later, he moved over to the Barrister Building which is over there like around 16th and Grant. And then in the meantime, he was keeping in touch with his brother. His brother was a well-known lawyer, Walter Gerash, and they were working on some cases together. And so, I would periodically work with Walter Gerash’s secretary Annette. And so, I became more focused just on working for the Gerash family. DD: Okay, cool. DM: And then, down here [pointing to interview outline] about the personal life, it basically was The Door. You know, there were some other bars in town, but I liked The Door. It was more, it didn’t have a lot of pretentious people in there – lot of street queens, lot of gay guys that are looking for dates. You know, nobody was standing around being stuffy. You know, a lot of dancing in that bar. So, that was pretty much my personal and social life then. And that continued up until the advent of AIDS. Then everybody, including me, we just didn’t want to go to any bars. We were reluctant to have any kind of sexual relationship with gay men, but that happened in the early ‘80s. DD: Right, so it was a few years later. DM: Yeah. DD: Were you dating anyone at that point for those next five or six years? DM: A couple of times, you know. But I was adamant about not being in a relationship because I had already been in three in Colorado Springs. DD: Oh, wow, okay. DM: Including the military police officer that I talked about in the last time [year 2012] interview. So I was pretty adamant by the time I got to Denver – no, that’s not me – been there, done that three times. And so, none of that occurred and of course when AIDS came around, that was even less of a chance to occur. Everybody was scared of everybody. So, right around that time �Page 9 [1975] Jerry had started the Unity. I think he calls it an organization. I looked at it more as an ad hoc committee of people who had a specific focus similar to what we had with Lambda – our focus was going to be to start a community center. And that’s kind of how I perceived Unity. I don’t recall it being like incorporated as an organization, but I know when Jerry talks about it I get the impression that he perceived it as an organization whereas I thought of it more like an ad hoc committee. But regardless of that part, I was involved with it. I went to all the meetings, and it was clear to everybody involved in Unity that was all we were going to do. We weren’t going to focus on anything else, just to get that community center started. And so, I was involved in the personnel committee. Once we got going with getting the center started, we wanted to look for the person – we called it Coordinator back then. They didn’t call it Executive Director like they do nowadays, but that’s basically what the position was, you know. And so, we put out the word through Out Front. Out Front had just got started in early 1976, and then we put the word out in The Scene. The Scene was still going strong. We got a lot of applicants. It was interesting that a lot of people applied for that. And so, in the personnel committee after we reviewed all the – everything was hard copy – and we reviewed all their applications and everything and then we met one-on-one with each applicant. And we decided that Christi Layne was the person we were looking for. DD: Right. DM: And so, that’s who we decided on was Christi Layne. And then Phil Nash was very good. He had been going to all of the Unity meetings, and there was no doubt about his abilities to do that kind of position. It wasn’t going to be a well-paid position, you know. And so, Christi Layne happened to be connected to some of the people in the Imperial Court and the Tobie Foundation who were having problems with some of the, like they had problems with Jerry Gerash. And they had problems with Cara Heller, whose Asian name was Noriko Nakano. She was Asian American. Her dad was Max Heller. He was a car mechanic. He used to work on my car here in Denver. But they did not like Cara Heller because she was a feminist. And at some of the meetings when they would say things like the “committee men” she would say “committee people.” She would correct them. Or if they would talk about a person who is in a certain position in government, they would always refer to them as “he” and Cara would say “he or she.” You know, she would do things like that. So she was on their hit list with the [Imperial] Court and Tobie Foundation. They did not like Jerry Gerash, either, because they perceived him standing up for Cara, you know. So anyway, I don’t know what transpired. I don’t know if Christi’s ever talked to you if you’ve interviewed Christi about this – what happened at that point. Something happened and Christi turned down the job because she was more connected to that segment of the community. They called themselves the social segment, and they called people like Jerry Gerash, Cara and me and others, they called us the political segment. And something happened over there, and Christi turned it down. So then we hired Phil Nash, and he said “absolutely I’ll do it” – no questions about it. And he turned out to be great. I mean he just ran that center from 1977 – that’s when we opened the center, I don’t know if you knew that. DD: I did. DM: He ran that and did an excellent job. I’m not sure if there’s anything else about the center and Unity that you want to ask me. DD: Well, there was a schism where the whole board walked out after Cara Heller had felt she was discriminated against and rightfully so. Is there anything that you’d like to say or talk about? �Page 10 DM: Yeah, that was ugly. They tried to recall. Again, it’s that social segment from the Tobie Foundation and the [Imperial] Court. They tried to recall Jerry Gerash and Cara Heller from the board, and they brought up all these charges. I think I’ve even still got the typed version from, not an IBM, but an Underwood typewriter. These are the charges they were like. It was just amazing. And they were all related to Cara correcting the men over their sexist comments, you know. And then, right around that time that they were trying to recall Jerry and Cara there was the Coors boycott had been going on here in Denver. And that started in the Chicano community. And then it continued on into the gay and lesbian community because Coors wouldn’t hire gays and lesbians in those years. So there was a big – I’m trying to remember – Pride in 1977, a lot of the pro-boycott people were at Pride. And there was a big argument because somebody from the [Imperial] Court had brought a beer – what do they call those barrels? DD: Keg. DM: Keg. They brought a keg that was Coors, and so a lot of the pro-boycott people went over there and turned it over and spilled it all over the ground. And then they started fist-fighting. I don’t know if you ran across that in your other interviews. It was ugly. So when they started the recall, they said that Jerry Gerash had gotten up at that Pride rally and stood up for the boycott – took sides. And then he was continuing to stand up for Cara Heller when she was badmouthing the men. She wasn’t bad-mouthing. Cara was pretty moderate. If you want to talk about some heavy-duty people bad-mouthing you over your sexism, then you bring Julia FitzRandolph in the room or Linda Fowler or Carol Lease or Tea Schook – then we’re talking about that. DD: Yes. DM: But not Cara Heller. She was very moderate, but they wanted to bring the hatchet down on her – kick her off the board and kick Jerry off the board. And so, then they had this big old meeting over at the Unitarian Church where everybody who was members of the center at that point, we would vote yes or no to kick them off the board. And so, Jerry took this seriously. You know, being a lawyer, he took this seriously. So he had me type up, you know, all of his defenses against all these ridiculous accusations that they had brought against him. And he just went on for paragraphs refuting every point that they made about him, you know. Well, Cara didn’t do that. You know when Cara showed up at that meeting, Jerry had his folder like this that you have here – an inch thick – he was going to let them have it like a lawyer would do, you know. Cara didn’t do that. She got up and she said something. I’ve got her statement, have you seen her statement? DD: No, I haven’t. DM: I’ve got that. DD: That’s wonderful. DM: It’s a wonderful statement. DD: No, no, no, I have seen that. It’s a letter from a ball-busting something. DM: A ball-breaking bitch. �Page 11 DD: Yes. DM: And that’s what she put. And she ended her statement – it’s just one page – she said oh I’m so sorry that I hurt all your feelings and I atone for my sins. Oh, it was real sour castic – sarcastic. DD: Sarcastic. DM: And then she pulled out her membership card and burned it, and all the lesbian feminists who had shown up to support her, stood up and sang “Mickey Mouse.” It was quite an ordeal, David. Jerry, poor Jerry, he’s over here wanting to do his legal defense of all these ridiculous accusations and they had more against Cara. But she said, “I’m not going to go point by point like Jerry’s going to do. This is all I have to say and I am out of this organization.” That was like one year in, I mean the center had just opened its doors. DD: The year before. DM: Well, no, in 1977 – like in May or something like that – opened the doors. And then we had this recall six months later. It was heavy. DD: Yeah, really snub, yeah. DM: What it did was worsen the divide between the social segment and the political activists. DD: As well as the boys and the girls. DM: Uh-huh. Yeah, it was pretty heavy duty. So the center kept going and Phil kept going with it, you know, and doing a wonderful job. And then, that’s kind of bringing us around to the racism because that was all going on simultaneously. You know, here you all want to argue over kicking people off the board but now you’ve got these bars here in Denver engaged in active racism. And so, you had Anita Bryant [famous singer] breathing down our necks nationwide. That was all going on at the same time that you want to have this recall effort against Jerry Gerash and Cara Heller. Really? DD: Really. DM: You know, all these monster situations going on and this is what you want to do. It’s just outrageous. So, with the racism that was going on, there was a queen here at that time – Lady Diana. She was a well-known drag queen, and I think you put on her name Jim Hart. DD: Yeah, that was her. DM: That was her boy name. Prior to Lady Diana – because Lady Diana was protesting outside these bars -DD: She was African American. DM: Yeah, uh-huh, and an excellent drag – drag – drag performer. But right before Lady Diana got involved in these [1977] protests, Terry Murphy – who’s not African American – he staged a one-person protest outside The 1942 [gay bar]. One person, and he did it for nights – night after night. You know, I later became good friends with him through the June 7th Collective, which �Page 12 the June 7th Collective was formed in direct response to what Anita Bryant was doing [1977] against gays and lesbians nationwide. And so, we named our collective after the June 7th election that took place down in Dade County, Florida. So that’s how we came up with that name – June 7th Collective. And then Terry Murphy was involved in it. And I notice you have on your outline Terry Barlow, but it was Kevin. DD: Kevin Barlow, okay. DM: And Billy Walker. There were so many people that were instrumental. Eddie Eskelson was another one. But we formed the June 7th Collective to provide support for lesbian feminists and to provide organizing skills for the [1977] protests when they had those two [police] killings. DD: The two murders of the trans people. DM: Yeah, Irene and -DD: So, Irene and Eugene. DM: Yeah. And, again, like those two in those years they didn’t identify as trans, you know. There would be times that I would see them at The Door [gay bar] and they’re in their boy clothes. So, I was just kind of thrown in later years when people starting saying “Hey, those were transgender people” and I said I don’t remember that. DD: That was me. DM: Was that you? DD: That was me. [Laughter by Martinez] DD: Suffice to say, what do you remember about Anthony Irene DeSoto? DM: Not much, other than seeing them at The Door and they worked the streets. DD: They were actual like prostitutes? DM: Oh, yeah, they were prostitutes. But on the nights when they weren’t working the streets, they’d come in their boy clothes and look just like gay men and pick up guys. But the only guys they would pick up on the street were straight men because they would go out there all dressed like a woman, you know. But there were many times when I would see them in the bar when they were not dressed like that at all and they did not go by their street names. Irene was a -DD: A street name. DM: Yeah, and I can’t remember the other one. DD: Eugene Levi. Tracy. �Page 13 DM: Tracy, there you go. So anyway, we would provide support for those protests when they got murdered. There were a lot of protests here about that. I don’t know if you came across that in your research. DD: Yes. DM: So I don’t have to go in to all that, but the June 7th Collective we would provide direct support and we would put our bodies out there and go march in the protests against those murders. And so, I forged some really good friendships like with Terry Murphy and Kevin Barlow. We became really good friends in those years. And to this day, every June 7th every year Kevin Barlow – we always try to beat one another, but he’ll send me a Happy June 7th reminder. DD: Nice. DM: That’s the era that we met. And we used to do it with Terry, but Terry died I want to say like 1995. So we used to do the same thing with Terry. Terry moved back, after he left Denver, to Missouri, but he still kept in touch with Kevin and I. So we had a really good friendship going there. And then, Kevin Barlow is still around, but he and his partner moved to San Francisco about ten years ago and then last year they left San Francisco and they’re now living in Illinois. DD: Oh, wow, okay. DM: Kevin’s not an activist anymore. In his older years, he says “I just can’t do that stuff anymore.” He says he always admires me that I can still get out there and march. He said he can’t even do that. [Laughter by Duffield] DM: So anyway, he and his partner got married under that California law. So they’re married and now they got that house in Illinois. So, the racism was just incredible going on here in Denver at the bars – at The 1942, one bar, and then there was another bar called David’s up here on 13th and Grant. And we knew several of those guys, African American guys that were being asked for three IDs – picture IDs – to get in there. So, right around that time in order to address that situation – again this was like an ad hoc committee specifically to target the racism at the bars – it was called YOU, y-o-u, and it stood for Your Own Understanding. That was the ad hoc committee, and it was a multi-racial committee – Chicanos, African Americans, whites, everybody, lesbians and gays – and we would stage protests outside those bars. And I just remember one winter we were doing that, it was so cold here in Denver, but we were so committed to doing this kind of stuff and we were drawing pretty good crowds – 40 to 50 people a night outside these bars. DD: Wow, that’s phenomenal. DM: It was phenomenal in the winter time. You know, everybody would come down all shivering and covered up with layers and there we were with our signs “Racist bar.” And some of these bars – The 1942 and David’s – would also harass women. So our chant became “Racist bar, Sexist bar.” And I don’t know if you had a chance to interview Tea Schook, but she was always showing up at the protests outside the bars. And then Carol Lease amazingly, we were like h-m-m that’s interesting Carol Lease – she’s a well-known lesbian feminist who became the first lesbian director [Gay Lesbian community center] – she came to some of those protests at the �Page 14 bars. So anyway, that pretty much gets all the stuff about the racism unless you have any specific questions. DD: So, what caused the racism? You said people were being identified. What happened at each of those bars and what was the resolution? DM: Okay. As a result of that double standard, the harassment, the blatant discrimination -DD: So, the bouncers and people letting people in the club were asking African Americans for three forms of ID but not the white patrons. DM: Right. DD: White male patrons. DM: Yep. DD: So, clear white male privilege. DM: Yep. DD: And the protests started to happen over the course of the winters of 1979 or 1980. DM: And ’81. DD: And ’81. And there’s that photograph of you that you showed me outside of a bar with a sign that looks like it’s really cold. DM: Oh, my God. DD: But what I don’t know if we ever talked about is what happened as a result of those protests. Did they change their policies? Did the Civil Rights Commission investigate? DM: Oh, yes, the Civil Rights Commission got directly involved. One of the African American activists whose name I can’t remember right now, he filed a formal complaint and told them downtown what’s going on over here at these bars. [See notation with an asterisk (*) below for the name of the complainant.] And they said okay we’ll send our own investigators down there undercover and see if they’re going to be asked for IDs and we’ll nab them like that. And they did. The Civil Rights Commission sent their own African American people down there, and they were asked for three IDs. So they had that, they caught them in the act of doing it. It wasn’t just these African American gay men claiming this. It happened to the investigators. And then as a result of the civil-rights complaints that YOU – y-o-u, not you – was helping fill out the forms, you know, and taking more complaints and putting ads in the Out Front [newspaper] saying if you’ve been a target of discrimination, contact YOU. And so, we filed all these different forms and paperwork that was required at the Colorado Civil Rights Commission. And they basically ruled that the _______________________ (*) After the interview was over and Martinez was on his way home, he recalled that Ed Mayo was the complainant whose name Martinez did not remember during the interview. �Page 15 owners of those bars were actively engaged in discrimination in violation of the State laws, blah blah blah blah. And clear up to the end, the owner of The 1942 – his name was Jerry Neiser. N-e-i-s-e-r was how you spelled his name – he was still in adamant denial – “Ah, I’m not discriminating against anybody. I discriminate when people come in here and they’re just loudmouthed and they’re causing problems in my bar. I don’t do anything at the front door to not allow anybody in.” DD: It’s not my fault, it’s my help’s fault. DM: Yeah. Clear to the end. DD: Never said I’m sorry, we’re going to work on that. DM: No, never acknowledged anything like “okay the Civil Rights Commission has sent me the order that they have found my business in violation of State law.” No acknowledgment of that, no acknowledgement that there had ever been a problem. DD: Wow. DM: And I remember at one of the meetings that we went to with him, this was before the Civil Rights Commission made a final determination. He said something to the effect of he’s going to use – if we keep agitating or falsely accusing him – that we all better be careful because he’s got the drinking glasses and he can throw them. I mean it was real threatening, you know, making these threats of violence against us for stirring up all this stuff. So and I never knew that man personally, but he was supposed to be gay. That was the word going around. He wasn’t a straight owner, but it was just outrageous to have a gay man engaged in discrimination based on race. DD: Surprising? DM: No. DD: Why not? DM: Well, I’ve met a lot of gay men in my lifetime who have racist attitudes. DD: How so? DM: Oh, like I remember even in the gay underground in the late ‘50s and ‘60s some of the gay men would call the Chicano gay men – call us “greasers” or tell us that we’re taking it too serious when we’d say “watch your language” or something like that. And then, so that’s just one example that comes to mind -- this was like in the gay underground. And then when we were in bar settings, I would always remember down there in Colorado Springs and here in Denver a lot of gay men openly using the “n” word. DD: Really? And I apologize. I should have asked if that’s something you want to talk about. Do you feel comfortable continuing talking about racism? DM: Oh, yeah, that’s fine. DD: Okay. �Page 16 DM: Yeah. DD: So did you yourself, if it’s okay to ask, ever personally experience any of those things? DM: Um, I remember some of my gay male friends in Colorado Springs – not just in the underground, but once we were aboveground – saying things like “You’re such a spick.” DD: Really? DM: And doing it like trying to use humor to do it, but just the mere mention of that word would just send shivers through my body because it’s such a racist term that I grew up with in the ‘40s and ‘50s from the white society down there when we lived in like a segregated part of town, they called us “spicks.” And that happened in the gay underground and the gay bars where people would say things like that – “You’re such a spick.” DD: Did you ever have any good conversations with people about race that may have helped them understand the perspective? DM: Well, at the time that these – that word is right up there with the “n” word, by the way – at the time that it would be stated, I would say, “You know, there’s a lot of history behind that word, not just against me, but against Mexican Americans in general, and it’s just so hate-filled.” And then, they’d say “Oh, Manuelita, you’re being too serious about it.” Manuelita was my underground name and alias that they knew me by. “Oh, you’re just being too over sensitive” and things like that to try to dismiss it. But anyway, yeah it’s out there. I’ve been on the receiving end of it and I’ve been around when I’ve heard gay men say horrible things about African Americans – the “n” word. And then Asian Americans, that one came as well in later years. Oh my God, the things and the words that gay men would use about the Asian American gay men, it was like oh my God. And so, that’s all part of the history of this country. You know, this country is built on racism. DD: Basically. DM: The first thing that the Pilgrims did when they got over here was they got up and started slaughtering the Indians and then enslaving the Africans who were brought over here. This country has a long history of that. And so, when you start talking about modern-day use in the gay male subculture using those kinds of derogatory terms, that’s nothing new. It’s all linked. DD: At that time in the late ‘70s and early ‘80s like, what was it like to be a Chicano gay man? DM: We didn’t really have a lot of hope of trying to bring our issues to the table and have them heard. DD: Issues like what? DM: Like racism, let’s talk about racism. Let’s talk about ways that our issues might be a little bit different than the broader gay male community. And for those reasons, because we didn’t feel like we could get those issues brought to the table, I remember there was one point early on when Carol Lease became the director at the community center – like 1980 – there was some community event held over there to talk about the importance of having gender parity. That’s what they called it back then. I don’t know what they call it nowadays. But to make sure that on �Page 17 the board and on the committees of the community center, there’s gender parity. And Carol Lease was a big advocate of that, you know, she brought all that up. And so, I remember saying, “Yeah I fully agree.” And the room was full of people, I said, “But we also need to address racial parity on the board and in the committees” and so on and so forth. And there was like silence in the room. People just couldn’t deal with that, you know. And so, after meeting these many situations where there’s silence or people don’t want to deal with it or want to laugh it off or you’re being too over-sensitive, that’s why we got together – Chicano gay men – and formed Ambiente Latino in 1980. And that’s why a lot of the Chicana lesbians got together because they had been through that as well. There was an organization here called Woman to Woman Feminist Center. DD: Right. The bookstore, right? DM: Yeah, the bookstore. And even a lot of the Chicana lesbians would go there, and they felt that their issues were not being heard or being dismissed or brushed aside or we’ll deal with that later. So, it’s that kind of experience when you’re told your issues can wait or maybe you’re reading too much into this – or the silence, that’s the one that used to throw people. DD: Silence. DM: Silence. When you bring up racial parity, everybody gets quiet. Now what’s going to happen? [Prolonged laughter by Duffield and Martinez] DM: Oh, my goodness. And so, that’s exactly why those two – and they weren’t really organizations, they were more like social clubs – that’s exactly why they were formed. DD: How did you form or help form Ambiente Latino? DM: How did it what? DD: You said you helped form Ambiente Latino. DM: Yeah. DD: So, what does Ambiente Latino mean in English. DM: Uh, ambiente is like atmosphere or space, you know. DD: Okay. DM: And we considered calling it Ambiente Chicano, but around that time we were meeting a lot of gay men in this town who were not Chicano. They were other Latino heritage – Puertoriqueños or Colombia – so we said let’s just say Ambiente Latino because Chicano would be really limited to just Chicano gay men. And then Las Mujeres Alegres, they didn’t use the “L” word. They just, you know, alegres basically means happy and mujeres means women. And it wasn’t like we were all trying to be closeted about anything, but those were the names that we came up with. DD: Who were some of the folks involved in Ambiente Latino? �Page 18 DM: One of the co-founders was Miguel Jaramillo. And, oh gosh, some of the other guys they were all Chicano – some of the co-founders. I don’t think we had any non-Chicanos involved in that. But Miguel and I – I’m trying to think of the third guy who was a real driving force in it. It wasn’t Lorenzo Ramirez. Lorenzo came around in the ‘90s, you know, and he’s now recognized as a longtime Chicano gay activist, which he is. But he was not involved in the founding of Ambiente Latino. He came to some of our cultural groups, cultural events, social events, but I can’t think of some of the others. DD: What are some of the things that they did? DM: Oh, we’d just get together and talk and socialize or go to the movies together. And then, at one point during that founding, Miguel wanted to go to Nicaragua because there had been a Chicano group here in Denver that was sending delegates every year because the Sandinistas had taken over the government in Nicaragua and they were inviting Chicanos from the United States to come and spend a week or two over there as guests of the government. And so, Miguel right around that time was talking about his interest, and so then we would start talking about what does Nicaragua have to do with us. You know, that’s some of the stuff that we’d talk about in Ambiente Latino. Of course, if we tried to bring this up in a multi-cultural setting, it might not have gone too far. You know, we weren’t like deliberately trying to be separatist about anything. We just felt that any time we tried to bring these kind of things up in a multi-cultural setting, it was not received or people said “What are you people talking about?” You know, that kind of mentality -DD: They didn’t understand. DM: Yeah. And so, then we were putting out – oh, we started putting out a journal. Miguel – he was a journalist. And that kind of ties into what happened to him in the ‘90s, which is not on the agenda for tonight. But his journalistic skills played a big role in the AIDS crisis in the early ‘90s here in Denver. DD: Okay. So a lot of the articles about HIV, I believe you said were written by him for the Denver North, for Denver Post? Or Rocky Mountain -DM: For Out Front. DD: For Out Front, okay. DM: Sam Gallegos was the editor at the time. DD: Yes, I remember interviewing Sam about that. DM: And Phil Nash – not Phil Nash – Phil Price [founder of Out Front] had already died from AIDS, of AIDS. So then Sam Gallegos was the editor and Miguel said he’d like to write about his experiences. And every issue, there it was something different Miguel would write. And I was kind of becoming a -- and we can talk about this another time because it was a big role in my life in the ‘90s taking care of Miguel. DD: So, coming back to Ambiente Latino. �Page 19 DM: Yeah, coming back to Ambiente Latino and Las Mujeres Alegres. Yeah, we just basically did a lot of social things, but it was separate. It wasn’t like the Chicanas didn’t trust us, but they just weren’t used to working with men, you know. And so, like around 1984 we formed – we all got together because we all knew who each other was – and we said you know our little names Ambiente Latino and Las Mujeres Alegres they don’t really state who we are. And so, we came up with the name Lesbian and Gay Raza and did things together. And that went on for about a year. And then something happened with the Chicana lesbians who were part of that. They had a big blow-out. Don’t ask me what happened, but they had a big old blow-out – some kind of split on their end of it. And so, basically Lesbian and Gay Raza lasted probably about a year and then we all just went our separate ways. DD: Can you tell me do you remember some of the women involved in Las Mujeres Alegres? DM: I remember two of them. Oh, one of them of course was Carmela Flores. But she just came toward the tail-end of it. She got here from California and she was burnt-out on activism in California. And when she got here, Miguel and I were on the RTD bus one day. And Carmela gets on to pay her fare, and she looks around at everybody on the bus and she said, “What is this? Why is everybody so quiet? Come on, let’s liven it up.” You know, people were like looking at her and Miguel and I were laughing because we liked her style right off the bat. DD: Alegra [she’s cheerful]. DM: Yeah. So we motioned for her to come and sit down with us. And then she says, “You guys are gay, right?” We said, “No, we’re not.” [Laughter by Martinez and Duffield] DM: We were playing around. You know, anyway, she was a Chicana lesbian activist in California and she said, “But now that I’m in Denver, I’m not going to do any activism. I’m burntout.” DD: Oh, okay. For not for long, huh? [Laughter] DM: Yeah, not for long. And like nowadays, her daughter Lisa Flores is on the Denver school board. DD: Yeah, I know Lisa. DM: Yeah, and Carmela passed away like 10 years ago, something like that. But, right away, Carmela and Miguel and I just became real tight, real good friends. And she became involved with the Lesbian and Gay Raza before it folded. And Carmela would know what happened with the two factions of the women and why -DD: It eventually folded. DM: Oh, it was bloody. DD: I can imagine. �Page 20 DM: But Inez Yslas was another co-founder. Inez Yslas, I-n-e-z is her first name. Yslas: Y-s-l-a-s. She was a co-founder of Las Mujeres Alegres and when it transformed into Lesbian and Gay Raza. DD: So, what were some of the activities that Las Mujeres Alegres did? Were they different from Ambiente? DM: No, pretty much the same. DD: So pretty much of a social club. DM: Yeah. DD: Any activism? DM: No, not around that time period. DD: And when you formed Lesbian and Gay Raza, what sort of did that group do? DM: Cultural events, like for Cinco de Mayo and Mexican Independence Day – that type of thing. DD: Which is actually what -- today? Or tomorrow, I believe. DM: The 10th? DD: The 10th or diez y seis [16], maybe it’s next week. I can’t remember. DM: Well, it starts like a whole week. Yeah, diez y seis starts this coming next Monday, but they’re going to start it on the weekend. DD: Right. So there was more social and more support, so kind of continuing what the two groups had done for a long time. DM: Right. DD: And what did the members get out of it? DM: It was just a nice relief to go there and be able to bring up something that was specifically Chicano related or Chicana related and not have to do any explanations about, you know, what we’re talking about. Whereas when you’re in a mixed space, there’s a lot of explaining to do. People are very baffled when you bring up something and they say “What does that mean or where did that start?” Whereas in a Chicano space, you don’t ask those questions. Everybody just knows what you’re talking about, you know. So it was just kind of a nice relief to just go there. But I was trying to think of that one guy who was a real – Geronimo was another cofounder of Ambiente Latino. Geronimo: G-e-r-o-n-i-m-o, like the Indian name. And I can’t remember his last name, but anyway that’s kind of where we were. A lot of that came out of the fact that, when we would go to mixed environments in the ‘70s, our issues would just be pushed down or “You’re just taking that too seriously. I think you read too much into that” – that kind of stuff. �Page 21 DD: And did those issues begin to change over time like toward the middle of the ‘80s? I mean Denver had its first Latino mayor, Federico Peña, in 1983, and then you started to have more and more visibility culturally speaking – La Raza and La Gente Unida, which you helped found, and then you also have the Crusade for Justice and all the schools then a lot more curriculum and a larger and larger Latino Hispano population. DM: Yep. DD: Within the Latino Americano cultures, did it become easier or harder or not changed to be openly gay? DM: In the ‘80s? DD: In the ‘70s and ‘80s. DM: Um, it wasn’t really that supported. You know, we’d hear about situations where somebody would try to bring up the fact that they were gay or lesbian and it wasn’t very well received. And I remember when I worked at that law firm when I first got to Denver, here we are in some heavy-duty Chicano lawyer activists in the office and then a Chicana activist working as a legal secretary. They made it known that the gay issues are not as important as ending racism. They made that known right up front. You know, if you want to bring up all the gay and lesbian stuff, that’s fine but it’s not very important when Chicanos are being shot or discriminated against in the schools or whatever. So, anyway, I don’t know if we’ve gotten through a lot of this stuff. DD: We did. We did the whole thing. DM: Did we? DD: I want to follow up with a couple of questions about personal stuff. DM: Okay. DD: So, like in terms of your personal life, your father had passed away when you were younger. Your mother was still alive at this point? DM: No. DD: She passed during the ‘60s or ‘70s. DM: Yeah, my mother died when I was 20. My dad died when I was 24. DD: And your brothers and sisters were still living in Colorado and Colorado Springs. DM: And New Mexico. DD: And New Mexico. And coming out to them, did you come out to them at that point or just kind of led your separate life? DM: Uh, they knew about it. My mother knew about it because I came out to her when I was 15. But she had always worked in that Mexican bar where they had Chicana lesbians hanging out, �Page 22 so she was like no big deal. And she would tell me in Spanish, “I knew since you were a little boy, so can we talk about something else?” [Laughter by Duffield] DM: But my siblings, no that’s a whole different story. They never wanted to talk about that. They knew about it, and they finally got to the point whenever we would have family gatherings of my brothers and sisters, they got to the point where they would no longer ask me, “When are you going to get married?” DD: So they just kind of accepted it. DM: Well, they just let that go because, you know, what am I going to say? After all these gatherings and you don’t see a woman around, don’t you get it? DD: Did you ever come out to them officially? DM: Uh, no, but they knew about it. DD: They did, okay. DM: Yeah. And my nickname in the family is Butch. DD: Yes. DM: And it’s pronounced Booch. And so, they would say, “Well, Butch” – this was like after several years of having these gatherings, after they knew about it – and they said, “Well, Butch, maybe someday you might find the right woman.” DD: Right. DM: I said, “Do you realize I’m not going to find the right woman. You know, I’ve known about this since I was a little boy.” Oh, and they’d change the subject and start talking about something else. [Laughter by Duffield and Martinez] DM: I’m the youngest of eight kids, you know. It was like shocking [for them] to learn that I’ve known all this time that I was gay. So anyway, one of my sisters – she was my dance partner because I have been a dancer since I was a little boy. I don’t know if you ever knew that. DD: Yes, I did. DM: So, she’s been my dance partner forever. And she called me, oh about 15 years ago from New Mexico. And she says, “Butch, I just found out that my grandson is gay.” And she said, “I just don’t know what to do about it.” And I said, “What do you mean, you don’t know what to do about it?” Because her grandson used to stay with her a lot while my niece would go to work and everything because my niece was divorced. And she said, “I just didn’t know what to do.” And I said, “Didn’t you love your grandson all those years you’ve been taking care of him?” �Page 23 Because the first time I saw that grandson in New Mexico when he was like this little [motioning hand to indicate the height of a small child], I said oh that is a gay boy. [Laughter by Duffield] DM: I just knew that little boy was going to be gay, you know. So I knew it long before my sister knew it and my niece knew about it. And so, my sister said, “Well, I just don’t know what to do.” And I said, “There’s nothing to do, you loved him before, you love him now, and you continue to love him. That’s your grandson.” You know, and so that’s kind of the closest we ever got to openly talking about the topic. DD: Yes. DM: And she said, well out of all the people in the family, she said I was the only one that she would feel comfortable asking about that because she said, “I know you mentioned one time that you knew since you were a little boy.” I said I did, and I didn’t tell her that I thought her grandson was gay when I first saw him. I didn’t say that, but I did. You know, it was just obvious. And so we never really -DM: And my oldest brother, we were very close and we could talk about all kinds of things. But he never really wanted to have any open discussion about that issue, so we just let that slide. And then he was a Republican. Oh my God, how can you be Chicano and a Republican? DD: [Laughter] He lived in New Mexico, right. DM: And so, we would have all these dialogues. I left the Democratic Party in 1968 and I would never dare be a Republican. I’m an Independent. I’m a free thinker. So we would have some really good political discussions, and sometimes it would get on the border of gay and lesbian issues. And then, kind of, he would steer it away. DD: Oh, okay. DM: Because that’s part of the Republican ideology is anti-gay, you know. But anyway, so we never got to really talk too much about that. He just died last year. DD: I’m sorry. DM: And he never got into the internet stuff or modern technology, but he would write me long letters – handwritten ten-page letters – and I’d spend a lot of time reading it. Of course, I can’t write back that many pages. I’d write back or type a one-page reply about the things that he’d bring up in the letter, you know. But we had that open there, but never really had in-depth talks about gay and lesbian issues. DD: If you had to think about anything for that period of time from ’74 to ’84, what would you say changed the most for you? DM: Oh. In terms of what’s going on in the -DD: In your life. DM: In my life. �Page 24 DD: At that point. DM: Oh, goodness. [prolonged pause] Oh, the advent of the AIDS crisis happened then. DD: How so? DM: I became afraid to go socialize with gay men, and other gay men were like afraid to socialize. And then when we started hearing during that time period you’re talking about – especially in the ‘80s – we’d get one call after another about this one’s dead, that one’s dead. You know, it’s just it was a very scary time here in Denver to get those calls and to know that many gay men – especially a lot of the Chicano gay men I knew – were dying like flies in the early years of AIDS. And that continued in the ‘80s and into the ‘90s, early ‘90s. DD: Okay, well, why don’t we stop here, and then we can begin with the story next time. Okay, thank you for doing this oral history. I appreciate it. DM: All right. [laughter] ++++++ End of Interview ++++++ � https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/abba630a8bc7598e8acf4c343d241afb.docx 39cdc31d10c9acce44507acba02a5cf5 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/a768ff08b69e2827e3d7f86fc322157b.docx 1398619e8f6417683cbaed8807594b7b https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/7b7ab0c17c1dfc6cfd2788f5d8b5e46a.pdf cec987acb0f1843d585d185a269ea3c2 PDF Text Text ������������ https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/4083b303568d439b962dcf5b8bd0379a.pdf 193304fffd797a268a3311ea99992764 PDF Text Text FEBRUARY 1981, Denver, Colorado. Standing (left to right): Betty Carr; David Gusiom; Pat Gourley; Jim Denison; Donaciano Martinez. Sitting is James Rose. The photo was taken by Phil Nash at the bar called The 1942, which was located at 20th and Broadway in Denver. They were among about 50 activists protesting racist and sexist policies of three Denver bars – The 1942, David’s, The Broadway. The pickets were part of a boycott initiated by an ad hoc group called Your Own Understanding (YOU). In the above photo, the “NIZER” word on the placard held by James Rose is an intentional misspelling of the last name of Jerry Neiser, owner of The 1942. Neiser repeatedly denied any problems at his bar. However, three days after the first picket, Neiser signed a formal Conciliation Agreement with the Colorado Civil Rights Division (CCRD) that his bar is open to everyone. Based on information from CCRD undercover investigators, CCRD formally ruled the bar was in violation of State civil-rights laws. At a meeting between Neiser and YOU in March 1981, Neiser denied signing the CCRD agreement and he told YOU activists that he “would hate to see people get hurt or have glasses smashed in their faces.” That threat resulted in YOU holding three more protests outside Neiser’s bar. In April 1981, after five years in existence, Neiser’s bar closed for good. One year before the 1981 YOU protests, a group calling itself the “Pink Triangle Collective” claimed responsibility for a stink bomb hurled into The 1942. In 1979 Lady Diana and a few other Black drag queens picketed outside The 1942. In 1977 Terry Murphy staged a one-person picket outside The 1942. � https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/e0b0c124b1cdd835b03dddc95a2a2b0f.docx 326c0326268669bce6d1d72fab6bfcc1 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/35c6a04c04e79073c607bc6bec70cb5e.jpg c3e7322b3f821fb2097529c986be5742 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Title A name given to the resource Donaciano Martinez Oral History Description An account of the resource Donaciano was born and raised in Colorado Springs. His family lived in an area which would later be torn down for "urban renewal" to make America the Beautiful Park. He grew up seeing signs which said things like "No dogs or Mexicans allowed." He also grew up when gay men had few spaces to find each other and had only the "bars and the bushes." Donaciano grew up, went to college, and was a member of the Gay Liberation Front at Colorado College, later founded La Gente Unida, led efforts to pass Denver's first anti-discrimination ordinances, and is a life long Chicano activist. Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Colorado LGBTQ History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/x-ms-wma Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2015 Activism Chicano Colorado College Colorado Springs Gay Liberation Front La Cente Unida Founder https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/b8d2ab9de2627942d089e9ae9165a2ed.MP3 891d219762fdcdd1a0a0a663435d6df9 https://lgbtqcolorado.cvlcollections.org/files/original/837b0b6cb8a35005893155812a3805a0.docx f90e7e9f7b07cbc13244cdb2318117eb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Oral Histories Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/ Title A name given to the resource Gabbie Butzin Oral History Date Created Date of creation of the resource. 2015 Description An account of the resource Gabbie talks about being a member of the Imperial Court of the Rocky Mountain Empire and growing up in Colorado Subject The topic of the resource Oral History Is Part Of A related resource in which the described resource is physically or logically included. Colorado LGBTQ History Project Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 Amendment 2 Colorado (1992) Capitol Hill Colorado Denver HIV/AIDS International Court of the Rocky Mountain Empire (ICRME) Nurse